Listen where you get your podcasts
Summary
This month, we’re talking about all things children’s literature! We dive into our earliest memories around kids’ books that we read, our reading habits as children, childhood reading rituals, and even what today’s children’s book landscape looks and feels like to us, as adults with children & niblings. This one’s a juicy conversation, especially as we dive into painful reflections about some of the literature from our youth.
-
Intro
nicholae: You’re listening to the We Reads podcast where we: nicholae,
Jen: Jen,
Sofia: and Sofia talk about books, the authors we love and how our identities show up while we’re reading.
Jen: These books have brought us joy, nourished us and changed us for the better. We’re excited to discuss them with you!
sofia
This episode we're joined by archivist and writer dorothy berry her book the how the house archives built and other thoughts on black archival possibilities was published in 2025 by we hear press we're super excited to have dorothy here with us so dorothy maybe if you could tell us a little bit about yourself um and if you want you can talk about the work you do but we don't necessarily need to talk about that either
Dorothy
Sure. um So thanks for having me. I'm a... So I have what I... and How would I say what I do? This has been an issue for me lately because I do too many things.
sofia
Fair.
Dorothy
um Just yesterday, someone called me a polymath, which is hilarious because I can't do any type of math. I know that's not what that word means, but... You know, it's funny.
So I have a variety of things I do for my day job. I'm a curator at a museum. But I've been really focusing a lot of energy lately on writing and talking and doing workshops and consulting around archives in a certain way that's maybe even more free than when I worked in libraries and archives because it's independent.
And that some of that is sparked by getting together with We Here and publishing this book. Some of it is just work that I enjoy doing. but That's really the bulk of my day in, I guess.
jen
Hmm. That's really beautiful. i um I'm curious, before we even, you know, talk about this beautiful book you wrote, like, would you be willing to tell us a bit about your journey as a reader, what that has looked like for you. um You can go all the way back to childhood. We have episodes where we talked about how it started for us. But like, what is what is your engagement been like with the books in your life, either about the book that you wrote or just the fiction or nonfiction that you love to read?
Dorothy
Yeah, I've always loved books since I was really, really little, partially because always had zillion, jillion books, in part because my mom worked at like a bookstore before I was born in the children's section. She has really good taste. And I think of that taste from childhood a lot because a lot of my friends have kids now, so I'm always giving them kids books and making recommendations.
sofia
Yeah, but I mean, we'll take recommendations too.
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
Oh, I mean, um really think more people need to get back to some of the classics. I want people to be reading The Little Fur Family, by Margaret Wise Brown, The Little Fur Family by Margaret Wise Brown. Amazing book about a family that is of fur creatures, undefined, that lives in a tree and the little boy who puts on his coat and hat and goes and has kind of an existential journey. through the woods. And The Little House and everything else that Virginia Lee Burton did. Amazing book about a little house on a hill in the countryside and urban blight as the city grows up around it and the house becomes forgotten. She ran like a utopian, progressive printmaking colony in New England.
So I really loved, those were two of my real big books as a kiddo, as a very little kiddo. And then I was really smart when I was little. I say that in comparison to who I am now.
Because when I was little, I was like always i was reading ah so many classics. I'm out here. I have the books. I'm reading. I have my favorite sixth grade book. Yeah. The Sorrows of Young Werther by Wolfgang von Goethe. Loved it. Loved German romanticism as a junior high student.
jen
Damn.
Dorothy
Loved Kafka and Gogol. Gogol? Gogol. Yeah, that's how you say his name.
nicholae
Gogol. Relatable.
Dorothy
Gogol. Yeah.
jen
Very.
Dorothy
Really?
jen
For nicholae, yes.
nicholae
That was me.
sofia
Yeah, for nicholae, relatable.
jen
For nicholae.
Dorothy
Yeah.
nicholae
This was all very me. I'm relating to you very hard right now.
Dorothy
Yeah.
nicholae
i love the Russians, the Poles, the the yeah the European authors when I was like 12, 13, 14.
Dorothy
Yeah. Mm.
Dorothy
Absolutely.
Dorothy
Agreed. Great taste we have. And then also, this came up last week. I was visiting, staying with a friend in Los Angeles, and another friend of his was staying there too from Guadeloupe by way of Paris.
And I was talking about how much I loved 18th century French court fairy tales when I was a child. And they were like, what are you talking about, you madwoman? And so we went through some of the classics.
And I was like, why is they just I didn't have that many friends when I was a kid. I had a lot of books. So I always loved that and particularly also always loved history books. Shout out to Pleasant Company.
jen
Wow.
Dorothy
Shout out my girl Addie. Shout out to my girl Samantha. ah Love reading American Girls. And what I really loved was that the American Girl dolls, they had their fiction novel series. Those were fine for me, but they also came out when I was little with each doll had their own book of crafts and their own cookbook and each one of the cookbooks.
sofia
Oh, yes, I remember the cookbook.
jen
wow
Dorothy
And in the back of them, they had like a little historic section that had archival imagery and also history. Loved that.
sofia
Oh, of course.
Dorothy
That was my favorite part.
sofia
Of course, of course.
jen
Mm. Mm-hmm.
sofia
ah
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
So yeah, always lots of books.
sofia
I mean, is there a librarian or archivist out there who doesn't like books? That would be so strange, right?
nicholae
You would be surprised.
Dorothy
I would be into them.
sofia
Really?
Dorothy
Yeah. I actually feel like i would I would like that person because they must have a very cool reason that brought them to the field. Like, I actually just want to serve people.
sofia
I hope.
Dorothy
I only care about community.
jen
mmm
Dorothy
If I have to use books to get to them, fine.
sofia
and Interesting. Yes, yes.
nicholae
I do sort of need to know that origin story for some of those people, but I've definitely met librarians who don't really read.
Dorothy
Yeah.
sofia
Oh, 100%.
jen
Right.
sofia
Interesting. wow.
jen
Oh, wow.
jen
Yeah.
jen
I am deeply impressed by your your child. like The same way that when nicholae, we had an episode of this pod where they were telling us like the things they read. that was like, oh my God. just i mean, but it speaks volumes to how you move. It feels like even now with the intentionality you put in your work and the the wide kind of grasp of the work. That's really dope.
sofia
Yeah, and you said that you're not as smart now, which I find hard to believe, but what are you reading now that you're enjoying, if anything?
jen
Right.
Dorothy
Yeah, so I was thinking about that in advance of this call, and I am someone who, unless something has really, really captured me, I tend to be in the middle of like three or four books, hopefully having one accomplished at some point or completed.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
And I'm bad at remembering things, so I put them next to me so I could accurately give the authors and the books credit. So right now I'm reading...
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Lee Jackson's Palaces of Pleasure, which is about the rise of public mass entertainment in Victorian London. Nonfiction. It's really good. i have finished the chapter about gin palaces. I feel like I'm moving into music halls. Great book. He's a really encyclopedic author, but has a really great sense of humor.
And the work pulls heavily from sort of anecdotal and newspaper and archival evidence because he's talking about somewhat subaltern things. So that's really engaging.
I'm also reading rarely. This is a very uncommon thing for me to be reading fiction. So I'm reading this book called The Hounding by Xenobe Purvis. which is really fascinating. It's about a family of girls who are very eccentric. It is like medieval times or maybe early modern times. And the girls are eccentric, they're in a town, the town kind of judges them for being outsiders. And at some point, the girls start transforming into a pack of dogs and this causes issues.
jen
Like werewolves?
Dorothy
No,
jen
Oh.
sofia
Just like actual dogs.
Dorothy
Yeah, unclear.
jen
No.
sofia
Wow.
jen
um Okay.
Dorothy
um Not werewolves, though.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
It's from...
sofia
This is a recent one, right?
Dorothy
Yeah, this is, like, last year? a couple...
sofia
Okay, I think I've heard of this book.
Dorothy
This is with the... Yeah. so Sorry, I was also wrong. It's 18th century. My bad.
sofia
Okay.
Dorothy
So, that one. And then I'm reading this book called The First Fascist, The Life and Legacy of the Marquis de Mores. Which is a huge book.
jen
Hmm. Hmm.
Dorothy
It's very thick. books
sofia
Mm-hmm.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
And it's about um the sort of rise of fascism in 19th century France. And this guy who was really lived a crazy life. Lived a really wild life. um Where he was like, went to the Americas. Did frontier cattlemen stuff. Built railroads in Indochina. Never successful. Particularly...except for at organizing people to blame their problems on um people who had nothing to do with them.
jen
I'm fascinated because you lifted, i love how you showed some of those books to the camera. um are you Are you like a strictly paper, physical book reader or do you usually dip into e-books or audio books?
Dorothy
I don't really do...
Dorothy
E-books, that and looks I usually use e-books when I'm reading something for reference.
jen
Mmmh.
Dorothy
But sometimes when I'm traveling, i'll put a I'll try to get a book that I think I would like to have traveling if I'm trying go light, you know?
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
um So I think in my Kindle, the most recent in progress is a book. The most recent book. In there is... Oh, yeah. and So it's another nonfiction thing. This book called The King of Confidence, A Tale of Utopian Dreamers, Frontier Schemers, True Believers, False Prophets, and the Murder of an American Monarch. About one of the offshoots um from one of the non-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Mormon offshoots after the death of...Joseph Smith.
jen
Mmm.
Dorothy
So that and then i have these other books that I don't know why they're at the top because i don't remember reading these at all.
sofia
That's really interesting.
Dorothy
yeah because sometimes it's still reference. Yeah, go ahead, please.
sofia
No, I was just going to say, because mostly what we've talked about on this podcast is fiction, because the three of us read a lot of genre fiction or speculative fiction. But I'm curious, so you said you generally don't read fiction. Is it just because you prefer, i mean, in line with, you know, your personal and professional interests, a more historical lens?
Dorothy
Yeah, I mean, that's part of it. i want to be really clear because this is the thing that I find annoying. It's not because I have anything against fiction or have like value judgment of fiction versus anything else, which is a silly way to feel, in my opinion.
I feel like I get real excited. I just get drawn in more to nonfiction, especially cultural, like historical things. Yeah.
But I will get a good fiction book and get pulled to it. you know and I'm looking now at my bookshelf and there's a display copy. Is is that a Press Galley? UK edition. Autograph copy. Percival Everett's James.
jen
Mm.
Dorothy
Loved that book.
jen
Mm.
Dorothy
I gave my regular copy to my mom. So there I go.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
And I will. I'll read a ah ah genre or fiction occasionally.
Dorothy
But I'm really picky.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
I want to know why this guy came back so damaged from the Napoleonic Wars and now is not even looking for a wife, but either is this lady looking I want to know some details. Tell me what's happening in this London.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
i don't want to hear about a ball where everyone's dancing in a nice dress. Get out of here....
sofia
I mean...
jen
That's so... I love that, like, the the the details, the way that that... Yeah, because you're right. Fiction has... It is glued to, like, a single character or a set of characters, kind of like the the ripe internal world of their struggles and choices and And nonfiction can do that, too. But there is also this, like, surrounding tapestry that it has to grapple with or untangle to understand.
And I guess they both can do that, but I... I'm jiving with what you're saying because I have found lately, like I never used to be a and ah big nonfiction reader, but um at night when I need something interesting to turn my brain off, but not so interesting that it keeps me up, I've been getting into these ancient history podcasts.
um And it's not that they're boring.
Dorothy
Love those.
jen
Right? I've been sleeping on them.
sofia
Wait, please name some.
Dorothy
Oof.
jen
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, this one is the fall of I will look it up in a second. It's like the fall of civilization.
Dorothy
I mean, like, as you're looking up, the go-to, I want to learn something, but also I need to fall asleep soon, is the BBC's In Our Time.
jen
Ooh, making a note. Because I'm looking for more.
sofia
Never heard.
Dorothy
Yeah, it's it's been there forever, and they're they are deeply fascinating if you're able to pay attention.
jen
Yes.
Dorothy
And if not, you're just going to fall asleep to like three British scholars talking about something that you've never heard of. The most recent episode is on the Garamontes, an ancient civilization 2,000 years ago in the southwest of modern-day Libya.
jen
Ooh.
jen
that's what I want. That's what I want. And the thing is, it is interesting. It is fascinating. And I keep, the one I'm listening to is The Fall of Civilizations. And it was a limited run series, but it's the same vibe. It's a British scholar just talking about the rise and fall of civilizations. um I think the last one I was listening to was on the Persian Empire.
um And just even getting to think about like the way that they frame like the narratives about the Persian Empire are told through you know, the conquering, the the Greek forces that interacted with.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
and kind So even just thinking about, we did, exactly, exactly right.
sofia
Yeah, 300 we talked about.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
And so that context,
Dorothy
This is my world.
jen
um
Dorothy
I'm just out here listening to History Podcasts.
jen
i I get it.
Dorothy
I'm just learning.
jen
Yes, I get it. i get it
sofia
I don't know how you guys concentrate..
jen
It's comforting in a way too.
Dorothy
that's like If I'm doing errands, I'm like...
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
walking around and then when people are making small talk with me I'm like well it's actually really interesting when you think about how eunuchs worked in the Byzantine Empire because the role of a eunuch in the Byzantine Empire is actually kind of different than the role in ancient China although still both very bureaucratic
jen
Yes, yes, yes.
sofia
I guess I got to add some history podcasts to my listening.
jen
but I still am trying to find good books.
Dorothy
I mean I don't know that you do
jen
I'm trying to get into the nonfiction book side of it. Cause I keep reaching for fiction when it comes to books, but there's something about someone talking to me about history.
sofia
Same.
jen
And so hearing you talk about and reflect on like what draws you to it is, it is joyous and fascinating and very like, especially that book on the, what you mentioned, the fascist, the first fascist wave in France.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
I'm like, I, i want, I need to find the audio book of that.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
jen
Cause I just, yeah.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
Preferably with a British narrator.
jen
Exactly.
Dorothy
okay I've tried to do audiobooks more. I'm not really good at it. I feel like i for some reason I will fall asleep more. I was listening to a really good one on the ive on my plane ride from LA back to Washington DC and it was really good and every time I would wake up I was like this is fascinating but then I will fall back to sleep.
jen
Yeah.
jen
Yes.
sofia
Right. ah That's my problem with listening to stuff like that is I'll just fall asleep and not ever wake up.
jen
Oh, no. no Oh.
sofia
Just be like, what are they talking about? i'm I'm actually listening to something right now, um but in and out because again, i I don't know, something about nonfiction doesn't grasp me like for a long period of time, but I'm listening to London Falling, which is like really popular right now The Patrick Radden Keefe.
Dorothy
Sure. Yeah.
sofia
Yeah, and I haven't gotten to the part where I really understand anything that's going on beyond the death of this like one teenage, no, he's not teenage, early twenties man in in London and how it's connected to like Russian oligarchs or something. Like I've gotten to the part where we're talking about Russian oligarchs and how they um they moved to London to get away from Putin and then now they're um they've just taken over everything in London. Yeah.
pretty interesting it's just like hard to go like oh right let me go back to this russian oligarch story in london yeah yeah
jen
Right. Right.
Dorothy
and It's pretty specific.
jen
It is. Mm-hmm.
sofia
um actually too so what are some of like the i guess like your significant or favorite reads that you still think about now
Dorothy
Hmm. A lot of things that are most significant...what That's hard for me to think of. ah So how I'm going to approach that, because I just pulled up my Kindle, is by looking through these titles and throwing out ones that I remember when I look at them.
jen
hmm.
Dorothy
Because there's a lot on here. I don't remember all of this.
sofia
That's fair. Hmm.
Dorothy
There's a book I really liked called Banvard's Folly. Banvard's Folly, 13 Tales of Renowned Obscurity, Famous Inanimity, and Rotten Luck by Paul Collins. And it's 13 short stories, not short stories because it's nonfiction, but these sort of vignettes about different people who attempted to do something somewhat fantastical. And it was really fascinating. None of these are people that are known people to anybody who's not specifically focused on some area and some place.
But they're all really fascinating of like someone who thought he invented this new type of medicine. Someone who thought they could invent. Oh, yeah, that's one of the ones that sticks with me. George Psalmanazar, who was like, this is, I think, an early modern guy.
Dorothy
I right that he's early modern? Yeah. So he's early modern because he was like a Dutch guy who showed up in London in 1704 or 1700s and was like, I'm from Korea.
Dorothy
And everyone was like, that's crazy. We've never been there. Tell us about it.
sofia
Hmm.
Dorothy
And he was like, I'll tell you so much about Korea. Yeah.
jen
Hmm. Hmm.
Dorothy
And there was no one there who had every, there had been enough information spread that people knew that there were islands and that there were places in that part of Asia, but no one at the Royal court had actually been there.
So they had no reference point of the sort of obviously, like even looking at you, I can tell you are not from Korea. You are some guy.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
And this language that you're speaking sounds not at all Korean. It sounds just regular made up.
jen
Hmm. Hmm.
Dorothy
Except there was one Jesuit priest who had been there and was like, obviously this guy's not from there. i Let me tell you. But then George Psalmanazar added to his self-told biography, like, and the Jesuits are really oppressive there, and they're liars. Yeah. So it's a really fascinating story. This guy, very random, did this thing. It was successful for a while. He published a history of the islands and eventually was outed and kind of admitted and just then lived a quiet life. It wasn't like, this is just, now this is just a guy. Yeah.
sofia
Oh, no consequences. Okay.
Dorothy
I mean, I guess the con there was the consequence of like, oh, he was a liar. Like, don't believe his stuff. But not like, it doesn't seem like he he didn't live the rest of his life on all of his book royalties or anything.
sofia
Right, right. right.
Dorothy
He became very repentant for being a liar.
jen
Yeah. Hmm.
Dorothy
But just conceptually, that sort of thing, I'm very fascinated in by sort of things that are a really big deal socially for a very short amount of time. Because that's actually a lot of life.
jen
Hmm.
sofia
Yeah, it certainly is.
jen
Yeah, it's true.
Dorothy
So that's one that stuck with me strongly. Another one that stuck with me. Flipping through these. Flip, flip, flip, flip, flip. Now I'm going back to non- everything's non-fiction. I guess that's just what I like.
sofia
That's okay. we can We can just stick with nonfiction.
jen
That's all right.
Dorothy
No.
jen
yeah
Dorothy
going to throw this out there then.
sofia
Okay.
Dorothy
Book I think everybody should read because I really enjoy it. And then we could all be talking about it. Paradise Now, the story of American utopianism. I love this book.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
I recommend it to so many people. It's a classic book to me. It's not actually a classic, but it tells a story about a variety of the 19th century utopian, like the big guys, the big 19th century utopian societies in the US, which is such to me a foundational part of this country and its ideas of what it is, that it's a place where people would go to create what they thought could be perfection.
jen
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Dorothy
What a crazy idea. Um, so it's got a chapter on shakers, my favorite people of, uh, utopianism, but also on the, uh, Oneida people, New Harmony, the Forest. I can never say that it's a French thing. I'm very bad at French pronunciation.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
um But really fascinating and written in a very charming manner. He has a lot of wit, so it's a fun read, I would say. Really love that one.
nicholae
And New harmony you Harmony is in Indiana, where I am.
Dorothy
Whoa. Yes, true.
nicholae
Not too far from here.
Dorothy
See? Recommend it. You can go there and say, now I understand you.
Yeah, that's... us Yeah, so those ones are really strong for me. And flip, flip, flipping. I did really like The Great Cat Massacre, and I feel like I cite that book a lot, and I know that...
jen
Huh.
Dorothy
So this is a book that is...
sofia
the great cat you said like c-a-t okay yeah yeah i don't like that title that's that's fair
Dorothy
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like a kitty cat. Um...
jen
What?
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
I know.
Dorothy
Well, I mean, i don't like that it happened.
sofia
yeah
jen
Yeah, right, right, right.
Dorothy
If it was a fiction book, that'd be, I probably wouldn't be my favorite.
sofia
Oh, other, and is it in other episodes in French cultural history?
jen
Mm hmm.
Dorothy
Yes.
sofia
Okay. Okay.
Dorothy
So I like this book. It's like controversial because um the historiography is maybe not up to scholarly par. I don't know, because I'm not an 18th century French scholar. But it's kind of, it is something of a classic-ish type microhistory book. And there's some things, concepts in it that really sort of shifted my ways of thinking about history and about evidence, like archival evidence.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
I think I quote, there's a line I quote a lot. Let me see if I can find it. Oh, yeah. what was proverbial wisdom to our ancestors is completely opaque to us.
sofia
That's a good line.
Dorothy
And I, yeah, I think about that a lot. And so he's talking about how there's sort of, um, when you're doing research in archives and reading history, he follows that pretty closely saying, when we cannot get a proverb or a joke or a ritual or a poem, we know we're onto something. Sort of saying this, when you're looking at historical things, once you get to the point where you're, where something is presented as common knowledge and you're like, I have no idea what this is.
sofia
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Dorothy
That's often the spark of really exciting understandings of history and great research, whole you know? um And I think that that's, really true and it's something to to work on more because we have a habit of seeing historical people as exactly the same as us but just in a different time. And there are ways that that's true in terms of like humanity. But there are also ways in which it's not true at all.
[AD BREAK begins]
You’re enjoying this podcast, right? And I know you’ve got to be thinking: how can I keep this bad boy going?
Well, one of the best things would be to support the larger organization we’re part of, called We Here. Since 2016, We Here has brought BIPOC library & archives workers, and LIS students, together with amazing programs—like our mentorship program, We Together; Community Study; and We Reads, which publishes quarterly lists of BIPOC-authored books and hosts this podcast you’re listening to. But in order to keep doing these, We Here relies almost entirely on Patreon funding. A monthly subscription gets you all kinds of goodies, too. With multiple membership tiers, you can support us for as little as what you might spend on a good cup of coffee each month. Visit patreon dot com forward slash we here to become a supporter.
Now, back to the books.
[AD BREAK ends]
sofia
And I think that might be a good lead in because I do feel like now we're getting a good sense of you as a reader, which is informing a lot of about, um because we read your book for this too, the House Archives Built and other thoughts on Black archival possibilities and thinking about what you've talked about just now and what you've been interested in and how that's showing up in your book, which I did tear up several times while reading your book.
jen
Yes.
sofia
which I wasn't expecting to, but um especially like the part with the poem with your, from your grandmother.
Dorothy
Oh yeah.
jen
Yes.
Dorothy
so yeah
sofia
Yeah. So maybe we can dive into the book now. Yeah.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
And some of the things I've been thinking about while reading the book and some of the things that really like hit me deeply, i think, well, partially what made me tear up a bit is because my own grandmother was not literate. So like thinking of when we're talking about archival possibilities and we're talking about like what actually can go into an archive, well, as it is currently the professional sense of it, I guess, that you've discussed.
Dorothy
Mm-hmm.
sofia
like what can actually be captured. And I know like, you know, people do oral histories and stuff like that, but it's, it's still limiting. Right. And I'm thinking about too, what you had written about like academia being so limiting in general, um, which is, I think something the three of us have, i don't know if we've all discussed this before, it's something that I think we've all thought about.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
sofia
Um, And like the things that quote unquote deserve to be in an archive or in a library. and this question that actually our friend Jorge Lopez-McKnight has is the one who like put in my head a while ago about like, but do you even want them to be in the library or the archive, which you've presented in this book too.
Dorothy
Yeah, I mean, to me, a lot of it comes down to this idea, or not idea, but this invitation to think on what the goal of anything you're doing is, really getting to a sort of existential or maybe spiritual place about things that we funnel into institutional focuses.
sofia
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
So people having really beautiful, big ideas about history and cultures they come from and communities they come from and families they come from and wanting that to be preserved in some way and to be honored, but then narrowing it down to institutional holdings.
sofia
Mm
Dorothy
And there are reasons one might do that. There are some some sorts of things you might have that that makes perfect sense. But also...I feel like I've ended up having conversations often on this, on the book tour about this, where it feels as though people are asking me for permission to explore looking at their materials in a different way. And i mean, as someone who has no authority, i love to give permission. Sure. whatever you want.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
But it also, you know, it kind of bums me out recognizing how much folks feel because of situations that they are in that that is something that needs to be asked.
sofia
yeah.
Dorothy
You know somebody asked me, how did you sort of get comfortable or decide that you could write in like an and a more experimental way? not scholarly or not sort of as linear and i and i feel bad sometimes because i think i respond flippantly not on purpose but just because i kind of you know you you don't see myself from someone else's gaze so i was just like oh why wouldn't i i just wrote this like who who was telling me not to do that
sofia
Right, right.
jen
right yes free will
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
Also, that's not really what I thought I was... Also, it's like, I didn't... That's not what I thought I was doing, particularly. But nobody said, like, who can tell me what to put in this document that I'm typing?
jen
sure
sofia
Right.
jen
Who gonna check me boo?
Dorothy
Nobody.
jen
Who's checking you boo? Nobody.
sofia
Exactly.
Dorothy
Exactly. Truly. No one, in a certain degree, cares.
jen
Hmm.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
And so it's like, you know, but... On the other hand, i don't want to be flippant about the realities that bring you to feeling like you're in those places where they do feel like there's limits.
sofia
Right. Right.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
Or it does feel like the only way we can get respect for XYZ is if you could say, look at this collection. And that might even be true. But again, to me, it's like, well, what is your goal, though? Is the goal to get a type of institutional respect that can then be leveraged into something?
sofia
right right
Dorothy
That makes sense, then. Is the goal to get a sort of institutional respect... so that when scholars write about, i don't know, the majority culture of which you are a minority, that there is referenceable material that counters the majority history.
That's valid. That's not usually what I hear from people, though. A lot of it feels much more personal.
sofia
Yes.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
Thinking more about like, um I think a lot of people, yeah, they do feel like they need permission for a lot of things, right? Not just like looking at their own, the thing the materials they want to preserve from their family's legacies, but yeah.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
just even like writing about their own experiences as if they don't have the authority to do that, which is again, so strange because why wouldn't you have the authority to write about yourself or your family or, you know, just writing from your own experience and knowledge? Like that's not, and I get that because I think I felt that too at the beginning of my career of like not feeling…right?
Dorothy
Yeah. And I think for me, that's sort of something that I think other people get more so from fiction than I do, but that I get a lot from reading history is the sort of reminders of the expansiveness of human experience.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Because something that I try to articulate and sometimes successfully, sometimes less so for the sort of why am I less interested in archives as ah as a metaphor for memory? And a lot of it is because We need to make sure that we're giving full you know celebratory credence to what an amazing thing it is to be human. Like the human bearer of knowledge is so much more important than any institution or book or piece of paper. And it's also fragile because people die.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
And that's true, ah you know, for all of us. And this is One of those things where I think when I get too into it, or not too into when I get very into it, I'm suddenly like, now people can really hear that I've read Ram Dass and that I go to Eastern Church.this is Because this is all very spiritual. What are we getting at, guys? Why are we here? Sure, be an archive. Or don't. Be free.
But just be kind. Be good. would But also to me, that's kind of the core of it. Like, what is, why do you want to learn about these things? their Their reasons have to do with how you're alive right now. And why do I care so much about archival subjects as historical people who were at any given point? Because humanity is so amazing.
What an amazing thing to be a person in the world who suffers and loves and does all these things. And, you know, i think obviously fiction books are for so many people and, you know, myself included for various different books, but those are the ways that you can learn about people that are so unlike you and their interiority.
sofia
Yeah.
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
And that's really challenging because there's something very comforting when you see people that are like you and you see their entirety that mirrors your own and you can feel validated in a very real sense. There's something else to be like, you know, reading, why is this guy becoming at the first fascist? Where's he come up? Why'd you come up with that idea, guy?
Terrible idea.
jen
yeah a
sofia
Right
Dorothy
But also it doesn't come from sitting around just being like, oh which of the different groups of people that I'm aware of should I hate?
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Because I would like to hate someone, but I don't know. Like, obviously, everything's complex, which doesn't, um it doesn't negate responsibility. I'm not saying anything that negates responsibility for actions or various cruelties, but it is, there's something I think really powerful about all sorts of reading, all sorts of expanding one's understanding that lead to enhanced empathy. that's really what I care probably most about, or at least it's what I work most about on myself.
jen
I love that. Okay.
sofia
Yeah, and I i also like love the images that you share in the book, particularly the ones of, I think they're mostly of your grandfather, right?
Oh, no, you had that one of your grandmother. Yeah,
Dorothy
Yeah, no, there's like a lot of different family people in the book.
sofia
yeah, yeah.
Dorothy
And I don't credit them all on purpose.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
um So, yeah, no, there's definitely my grandma Wanda's in there.
sofia
I love her.
Dorothy
I don't think my grandpa, I don't think my grandpa Jack Wallace, he's not in there.
sofia
Maybe he's not. Maybe I confused him with someone else.
Dorothy
No, my great, great, great grandfather.
sofia
Okay.
Dorothy
um
sofia
Oh, no, it's the photo of your father.
Dorothy
He's in the mix.
sofia
yeah yeah, yeah. I was thinking of the one specifically from the elementary school.
Dorothy
Oh, yeah. Where there's all the kids sitting outside the school.
sofia
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one's so cute.
Dorothy
So that's actually my, that is my grandfather.
sofia
Oh, that's your grandfather. Oh, right, because it's your your father's father.
Dorothy
Yeah. Yeah. but Yeah.
sofia
Yes.
Dorothy
So that's a great picture. i just love that picture.
sofia
Yeah. Yeah, it's great.
Dorothy
But it's also, yeah, so many little stories.
sofia
I know. And so I was like thinking about this because I have a 17 month old right now. And thanks.
Dorothy
Oh, mazel tov.
sofia
ah It makes me I've been thinking about like a few different things, one of which, as you were talking, is that I just keep taking videos of him because I like I'll take a photo and then I'll be like, oh, I wish I had like all the surrounding thing that was happening at the time and not just the image itself but then also i was thinking like as I was reading your book like oh actually I should put together like a a family album of like you know all the people who've passed from our families and like all the people who don't live near us right now and like show them tell stories about them because it's not really something i guess I've thought about before but now I'm like oh we should be telling stories of the family and like who they are and what they've done.
Dorothy
Yeah, I mean, I think also it's interest. Like, i don't I know so many more stories that my older brother doesn't know.
sofia
Oh, well, sure.
Dorothy
And he'll be like, well, how do you know this?
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
They just tell, but I feel like mom and dad just tell you, just would like tell you stuff. And I was like, yeah, because I asked.
jen
Right. Right.
sofia
But I think that's like part of it, right?
Dorothy
Mr. Guy.
jen
Well, and...
sofia
Because like my, I don't know if this is like a Chinese thing, but my dad does tell a lot of stories of growing up, but they're kind of stories like one time I was on a dock.
um he He grew up in a village in China. One time I was on a dock and I like fell forward onto my face and there was a nail sticking out. Sorry, maybe this is like going to be gross for some people.
And it like poked me in the cheek. And then I was like eating rice later, porridge later. And it like came out of the hole in my mouth. like storie Like those are the kinds of stories my dad likes to tell of his childhood, which fair because it wasn't a great childhood. They were really poor.
Dorothy
I mean, that's memorable.
sofia
yeah it's super memorable, but it's like and it it gives you like a really visceral feeling of like, oh, that's what your childhood was like, which is like the total opposite of mine now.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Yeah.
sofia
um
Dorothy
And I think that even those, though, it's like the way that you've used your experience to put context around why that's a story he would choose to tell.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
is so you know it's so fascinating.
sofia
where Right, right, right.
Dorothy
Because it could be like, if your dad had a different personality... I don't know your dad, so this is all hypothetical.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
But even just based on that, if your dad had a slightly different personality, he'd be like, he tells stories like that because he loves to be a gross-out guy. That's the only...
sofia
I mean, that's part of it.
Dorothy
but but
Dorothy
Dads do like to gross us out in life.
sofia
Yes, they do
Dorothy
But you but you know it's sort of like but it could be something where you're like, actually... Now that i've great I'm older, i'm I'm thinking about things, I can see that the real point of that story is a whole different thing. and The story is actually, and i and I don't want to keep going on this hypothetical because this is actually your dad and your life, so I'm not trying to make up a narrative there, but it is a sort of thing of like, why is this the story they tell?
sofia
Right, right.
Dorothy
oh because they're trying to process how I have the life I have, and I come from them.
sofia
Yes.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
And their experience is so different, even though that was a thing they planned for. That's what they were pursuing.
sofia
Right. Right. No, I mean, I think too, right? Like it's a, it's like a way of being like, be grateful for what you have. Right. Like these are the, this is the life I tried to build for you.
Dorothy
Yeah.
sofia
So it wasn't anything like mine.
jen
you know, what what you both have been talking about and when I read your book, Dorothy, what stood out to me most was the grappling with the concept of memory as this very intangible thing that the archive is trying to codify, organize, describe, but that really when it comes down to it, a lot of this is what people remember and how those remembrances change depending on who's telling the story.
And it got me thinking about my own family stories and in particular about Black memory and the ways that memory is tangled due to legacies of literal slavery and erasure.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
And so I just, I think I am curious. I don't know if you've been asked this on tour before, so if you have apologies, but I'm wondering for what What would you say to or how have you spent time thinking about the context of remembering when you are Black in a world that has made that challenging and grappling with knowing that there's always an incompleteness to the memories that we will be able to pull from. And to an extent, everybody has incomplete memories. Like, there's only so far back any of us can go. But I'm i'm thinking specifically, yeah.
Dorothy
Yeah. The sort of ways that there are, there are records, there's a wealth of records about Black people that are not about them as beautiful, complex humans.
jen
Yes. Yes.
jen
Right. Like literal property records is right.
Dorothy
Yeah. Yeah.
sofia
Hmm.
Dorothy
And I think that that, i yeah, because at the end of the day, to a certain degree, you're right. It's like, Excluding, even then, but, you know excluding, like, incredibly upper-class, aristocratic, heavy journalists, self-diarists.
jen
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dorothy
Most, everyone has gaps.
jen
Right.
Dorothy
You know, I'm from the Ozarks that has a, that culturally is, like, mostly migrants from Appalachia.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
You know, lot of them, a lot of Hill folks, grandparents or great grandparents definitely couldn't read and were outside off the grid and all these ways.
jen
Hmm. Hmm.
Dorothy
But there's a specific thing that is like, I can maybe find these records about who owned my family and I can find my family as object.
sofia
Hmm.
jen
Right.
Dorothy
And I think for me, that's also one of the ways that it makes me want to take the art, want to take archives for what they are, as opposed to the big expansive possibilities. Because when I think of like, ah and again, i'm not this is not a criticism of any individual way of writing or exploring things. It's not a piece, but a disappointment of mine, that i of myself, is that i sometimes people are careful about the language they use around me because they're like, I'm sorry, but don't know if I'm doing archives right. And I hate that because i would I don't want anybody to feel limited by anything that I do unless it's limited in being mean to people or something.
jen
Mmm.
sofia
Oh.
jen
Mmm.
Dorothy
but
jen
Mmm.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
But, um you know, it's not that this institution has a collecting gap if it only has plantation ledgers. Because there is not an equally scaled thing that is being ignored. And I almost think, and I do think sometimes this extraction lets institutions off the hook because it depersonalizes things.
jen
Sure.
Dorothy
I read something yesterday that was talking, like explaining archival collecting and why there can be gaps.
jen
Right.
Dorothy
And it said, I didn't read it in depth, don't actually even remember the source. But there was some sort of line that was like, archives have a desire to collect as much as, and I was like, no, archives don't have a desire.
jen
Hmm. Right.
Dorothy
People have a desire and they run these things.
jen
Hmm.
Dorothy
And the more you're extracting this, the more people are actually off the hook.
Dorothy
And not that necessarily every issue that needs correcting comes from someone making an error at the time they were doing it.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Sometimes you correct something just because we've learned more or things have changed. Something could legitimately not have been offensive even to the people referenced at one time, but it is now, and that's okay.
jen
Right. Right.
Dorothy
But also that's not a thing of like, who knows how these collections get? It's very mysterious. Why these silences? But archives must collect. And it's like, no, no, no. People said, I collect business records. These are the important people in our community. This is how I'm doing it. I'm not going and getting other things. I'm not building relationships this way. That's not what archives are for.
We change our opinions so socially, community-wise, about what we could possibly do in libraries and archives. I think of all the times when amazing boosters of libraries who don't work there, but like you're an amazing patron. but Well, because of sort of idealism that you're like, oh sometimes people will give give me the like, what you what you do, librarians, is amazing.
jen
Yes.
sofia
Yes, yes, yes, of course.
jen
Right.
Dorothy
And I'm like, oh, I don't actually, I like don't even do that work.
sofia
I know. that's not.
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
I know who like i know who you're thinking of, and they are amazing.
jen
ah but
Dorothy
Most of my work in libraries has been like, here's a rare manuscript.
sofia
yeah this not
Dorothy
I'm not trying to steal valor from public librarians but then also you know the sort of thing like libraries have always been liberatory places above and it's like kind of depends
sofia
Right. Yeah, sometimes.
jen
Right.
jen
Truly.
Dorothy
but you know so I think that that's kind of it for me thinking about the dangers of getting too tied to what's missing
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
without being able to do the often painful, um both intellectual and emotional work of grappling with why these things are missing.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
You know, because the answer is sort of a lot of it's just like, oh, why don't we have those stories?
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Because people were actively not allowed to learn how to document things in a way that is material. And at the same time, like many, you know,
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
traumatized groups people don't always pass down stories you know it's a classic thing I assume after slavery there were a lot of people who were just like I'm not gonna talk about this at all
jen
Mm, yeah.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
and fair yeah hmm
jen
And fair, yeah. Mm.
Dorothy
That's something that I remember during the height of 2020 pandemic times, I was listening to some podcast that was talking about the Spanish flu epi ah the influenza spanish influenza epidemic.
jen
Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
And it was talking about how traumatic it was across cultures, societally, and how pretty quickly it kind got erased from cultural memory because people just didn't talk about it very much.
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
And that feels impossible in the moment.
jen
Right.
sofia
Yeah, but then we see COVID.
jen
Right. And the sort of like very quick.
sofia
Yeah, people just forget. Like, even when you ask people to wear a mask, they're like, what?
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
Yeah.
sofia
Why would I?
jen
Mm hmm.
sofia
Yeah.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
Yes. Yes. It's like were you you were here five years ago.
sofia
It was not that long ago, guys.
jen
No, exactly.
sofia
Yeah.
jen
Right.
sofia
Yeah.
jen
Yeah.
jen
That was really beautifully put. And, you know, I have another question about the book, but it's more about from the writer side of it.
Dorothy
Sure.
jen
So I I um I don't want to move us away from that if Sofia or nicholae have more questions about the um interiority, the pet that the the meat of the piece, the meat of the work.
Dorothy
I'm done.
sofia
No, I'm happy to move on.
jen
Okay.
nicholae
Yeah, same.
jen
So,
nicholae
I want to hear what your question is I'm excited.
jen
so okay.
nicholae
Because I feel like the writing of it is also so, i mean, it's beautiful, but it's also just so relevant to what's going on in the text and how it came forward from you.
jen
Okay.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Thank you.
jen
Yes, exactly. And I think that was, you hit it, nicholae. When I was reading it, I thought about the level of vulnerability that has to be had as you move through the text. um Not only like pouring out sort of your own family stories, but I was struck by some of those interviews, the interview segments where you had, um it seemed like friends, community kind of gently and
Dorothy
Oh, where my friend Mecca calls me out repeatedly?
jen
Yeah. I know. I was trying to like be gentle about it, but yeah, interrogating, you know.
Dorothy
No. Yeah, where she's like, why are you intellectually dishonest, girlfriend?
jen
Yeah.
sofia
Is she also an archivist?
Dorothy
No.
sofia
Oh, that's hilarious.
jen
yeah So I was i given that I was going to ask you, what did it feel like to write this and to and to infuse like also your own reflections on like where you felt you were falling short or for you felt like you had were sort of like, oh, yeah, you know what? I am not doing this or I should, you know, name this thing. We name where I stand on this. How did it feel writing this book?
Dorothy
Yeah, so I'll start with the the conversational back and forth sort of meta at piece in the like you know revisited House Archives Built essay.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
So i had had i was able to have to like be paid readers able to have two paid readers um to review the text. One of them, my friend and fellow archivist, Stephen Booth, and he had good comments. Some of them were more technical about things in the field. Great.
My friend Mecca, who is just a beautiful genius, ah doesn't work in the field, has done archival research like in her studies, but she's not in academia.
jen
hmm hmm
Dorothy
She's very busy stay-at-home momming our perfect child, my little niece, Luna.
jen
hmm
Dorothy
Um... And when she reviewed it, she left me a very long voice memo after sending it back and was like, hey, girl, I just want to be really clear that I love your work and I only push you because like we're really good friends and I love you.
sofia
yeah.
Dorothy
But also, i feel like there's a lot i i feel like you can do more. i feel like you can do better. You can do deeper. And when I read her notes, I was like, these are all so good and they're so in-depth that I actually can't integrate them as edits.
Partially because I was like, people do cite the House Archives built as an essay a lot, and it would be good to have like kind of a clean version in the book.
sofia
yeah.
sofia
yeah.
Dorothy
But also because it would be intellectually dishonest to pretend that some of these things are things I thought of.
jen
hmm
Dorothy
Because it really is conversation.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
so like you know and there's a steps section where she says something like, you know you're really doing Marxist materialist analysis here, why don't you name that?
jen
Right.
Dorothy
And ifs I could have put that in But also, i didn't name that because I have not read those books. She has, for sure.
jen
right
sofia
Oh That's hilarious.
Dorothy
Like, I'm really, as someone, one of my friends, not at all backhandedly, but also hilariously once said that I'm i'm a real autodidact with theory. By which he did not mean that I have taught myself theory, but that I have taught myself enough about a variety of theory things that I can be conversant up to the point of someone who's an actual expert.
sofia
I mean, that's pretty great.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
I can't pretend to do any of that.
jen
i know
Dorothy
Yeah, I mean, it's it's really, it's it's just BSing mostly for me. But so like, I'm not going to say, which is obviously materialist analysis.
sofia
Right, right, right.
Dorothy
But I also wanted to have that. So I wanted to have that in there as both a really great comment, and also conversation. And because I was working with We Here and because it was their their first book, my first book, I could have that sort of what are ways this could be implemented in the text.
sofia
Yeah.
Dorothy
We talked about, like, could is should this be like marginalia? Is this footnotes?
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
What's the design way to make this functional?
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
And I don't necessarily, I mean, yeah, the vulnerability thing. I don't really feel, I feel like I'm pretty controlled in what information I share.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
um But i do have, you know, I'm also, said i'm also an art fart. I'm also an artsy person, a performer, et cetera.
jen
Art fart. Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
So I'm also, I'm used to a certain degree of like controlled vulnerability.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
sofia
Yeah.
Dorothy
or you you know So there are a zillion ah harrowing and really telling stories about my mom's family, my dad's family, my immediate family that I would never put in a book.
sofia
yeah
Dorothy
Ever. I wouldn't even allude to. Because it's not my story. Some of them even are my stories. But it's not anybody's business. So I do think a lot of that does come from like, comes from a creative and performance background where there's a degree of vulnerability that I'm comfortable with because that's the only way that you get to things that are real.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
But I didn't necessarily consider that as a thing I was doing that, which which is kind of silly, I guess, lack of foresight. But I didn't really consider that as a thing I was doing that someone else would be like, this is very personal.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
jen
Which, you know, and I mean, that is, you know, the relationship of the reader to a text is is in an inherently personal, right? So there's also like the misreading of texts by a reader.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
So it's interesting to hear you talk about it because it's like, yeah, it... That is not the word you would use to describe it for you. And that makes so much sense. And, you know, as a writer, too, it's like I I make peace with knowing that when I put something out, it is no longer the meanings inherent that I went into just with the writing of the piece, no longer really…Not that they don't matter, but it's like I know that if I'm not ever going to talk to that reader, they could have a whole different interpretation and analysis of the work that is theirs.
So that, I mean, that makes sense to me. And I think it's really beautiful to hear you be like, yeah, part of it was intentionally being like, there are stories I will talk about and there's stuff that I will never put in it, which makes sense.
Dorothy
Yeah.
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
Yeah, I think it's necessary. And it's also just, it's natural to me to frame things from some sort of anecdotal foundation, be that personal or some, you know, obscure history thing that I read and now I will use as a, as a starting point. But I just, yeah, it didn't really occur to me that that was particular until people started telling me that. And then, but then I was like, oh, that makes total sense. Yeah, no, that is, that is crazy. that's yeah i mean to sort of like that's like you I'm sort of like, oh, that is a unique thing.
jen
I don't think it is. I think you're right.
Dorothy
you know
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
um Because one of my friends just last week was like, I never read anything like that. It's because he it's incredibly personal. And also, and he's you know not in any of these – musician, you know– it's incredibly personal and it's incredibly technical at the same time.
Dorothy
And I was like, I guess.
jen
yeah if you say so.
Dorothy
Yeah, exactly. i'm I'm sort of at a point of like, yeah, it's wild that people that don't work in archives are engaged with this.
sofia
Reading this
Dorothy
Wow. Okay, cool. I love that.
Because most people in my life don't work in archives, so I do enjoy it having relevance.
jen
Yes.
jen
Mm.
sofia
Yeah.
Dorothy
But I also, to a certain degree, for some people in my life, i'm very i it's it's less personal than other creative outputs would be if they don't get it
jen
Mm.
Dorothy
Because I'm like, yeah, you might not actually know about this feel.
jen
Mm.
sofia
Right, right, right.
Dorothy
Yeah. Like if you love the parts that are more personal and you were like, I don't.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
Get the rest of it.
Dorothy
Yeah. why mean Why?
sofia
Yeah.
Dorothy
I didn't go to school. This is not relevant to me.
sofia
Yeah, yeah, fair.
jen
Do you feel like that is tied to or like, so do you feel like the the reaction of people being like, damn, this is real personal, that that's tied to the way we also consume content these days, like in terms of social media and kind of like very specific narratives that are fed in shorter bursts, shorter bites, um highly manicured,
sofia
Mm-hmm.
jen
um Do you feel like that has anything to do with it or no? Or do you feel like that comes from an entirely different place? That reaction to like, this is so personal. This so intimate.
Dorothy
I mean, I'm sure that's part of it. You know, I have been, I've had editors before, not like ones I worked with closely, but just people, know, maybe editing an essay or something where I just was like, ah, they totally don't get what I'm doing in the sense of just structurally.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
Like, yeah, no, I know that sentence is really long.
jen
Mm.
Dorothy
That's how I write. Yeah.
jen
Yeah.
Dorothy
Actually, someone tried to give me the note, the classic note of like, read this sentence out loud and see that it's like actually many sentences. And was like, oh, you've never heard me talk either.
jen
Right.
Dorothy
Because this does sound natural to the way that I talk.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
And even my mom, when she read it, who was a big, she probably bought all of the books.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
She was like, You're a very Victorian writer. All these sentences... All these sentences are so are very long and the paragraphs have like two sentences.
sofia
That's so funny.
jen
That is.
Dorothy
Yeah. Yeah. She's a... If I... If no one is roasting me, she is no longer here.
sofia
Aww.
Dorothy
um In the best way. In the best way.
sofia
No, I know, I know.
jen
Lovingly, yes. Tender roasting.
Dorothy
Yeah, because she's also a sweet she's also a sweetie.
jen
Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
But...
sofia
Yeah.
Dorothy
Yeah. And I also think we don't have a lot of space for people to express an emotion that they experience and it not be like you know, point of view video. and No, it's point of view video. It's a thing. People expressing emotions and it not be something of fragility.
Which I'm not against fragility. It's, ah you know, foundational to my existence. But the sort of thing of like, I am mad. I am sad. Like to be able to name emotion and then say something more is really shocking to some people.
jen
Right.
sofia
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
jen
Right.
sofia
That's true.
Dorothy
And part of that is that I've been in positions professionally where i don't I don't see a danger to my success in doing that.
jen
Mm.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
And there are many reasons why people of a variety of different backgrounds and standpoints wisely recognize that that would be something that affects them in a different way.
Dorothy
But I do think that's part of it where it's like, to me, it doesn't feel wildly vulnerable to say, I am upset or this is upsetting because it's a problem. Here some solution things, but actually, yeah, no this makes me mad.
jen
And we work in a toxically positive profession with folks who sometimes feel that conflict is you can't be generative, that it's just only like, if I say that, I'm it's a problem.
sofia
Yes.
Dorothy
Yeah, for sure. And also like, you know, for various points of time, I've have thought when I was younger, this common thought process, if I want to be respected by people in authority positions, um often by men in authority positions, that I can't have display of emotion or I can't feel anything because, but you know, as I've grown older, I've recognized that if that is going to be the case, it's okay because those guys weren't going to respect you regardless.
jen
Yes.
sofia
Right.
Dorothy
And that's something for me with like emotion. That's something for me with how I dress. When I wear a little business suit, maybe I'll get five more minutes of respect than if I'm not wearing a little business suit.
sofia
Right, exactly.
Dorothy
I mean, I like to wear a little suit.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dorothy
But if i was were to but I was wearing a square suit that really just made me look like a conservative, and with small c, conservative professional, will that get me more respect? And it feels like it might, but...from people who we're going to have an issue with yet sort of thing. You can't really get around it.
sofia
Right, right, right. Nope.
jen
true. respectability is not gonna save you yeah it's a beautiful combo
sofia
It's very true.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Dorothy. We loved having you.
Dorothy
Thank you all.
sofia
And this, yeah. It's a fun conversation.
Dorothy
No, it's super great to Oh, thank you.
nicholae
It's been great to read your book.
sofia
Yes.
Dorothy
No, it's super great to talk about all the things I like.
Dorothy
And then to, as I'm talking about them, be like, who are you?
Because I want to say, like, I want to say and have it be true that I'm not that level of eccentric. And yet, i that would be a lie, I think.
Dorothy
But also it feels like, i I always feel like I want to throw in like, also watch cartoons and stuff. Do a lot of goofball behavior and don't read a lot of genre fiction. I do watch a lot of sci-fi television.
jen
hey
Dorothy
Sort of thing. of being Just to be clear, I'm not just like, let me put on my dressing robe and read another history book.
jen
you contain multitudes
Dorothy
It's true. Real polymath over here.
Show Notes
We hope you enjoyed this episode! Below, you’ll find links to topics & resources that came up during our episode.
Books, Authors, and Media Mentioned
Books
Tikki Tikki Tembo (note, we’re not recommending this now. It’s racist.)
Harry Potter series (again, not a current rec. But sigh)
Lord of the Rings series, J. R. R. Tolkein
The House in the Cerulean Sea, TJ Klune (not a rec)
Taipei Story, RF Kuang
Anti-Racist Baby, Ibram X. Kendi
Julián Is a Mermaid, Jessica Love
The Pout-Pout Fish, Deborah Diesen (again, not a rec)
Pink is for Boys, Robb Pearlman
Peck, Peck, Peck, Lucy Cousins
The Velveteen Rabbit, Margery Williams
Feminist Baby, Loryn Brantz
Bye, Bye, Binary, Eric Geron (this is the one Sofia couldn’t remember the title of)
Banana, Banana, Banana!, Sarah Finan
Percy Jackson series, Rick Riordan
Dragon Pearl, Yoon Ha Lee
Trail of Lightning, Rebecca Roanhorse
Black Sun, Rebecca Roanhorse
Americanah, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie (again, not a rec)
Capital, Karl Marx
Redwall series, Brian Jacques
Ella Enchanted, Gail Carson Levine
The Two Princesses of Bamarre, Gail Carson Levine
The Monster at the End of This Book, Jon Stone
A Wrinkle in Time, Madeleine L'Engle
The Earthsea Cycle, Ursula K. Le Guin
Amelia Bedelia series, Peggy Parish
Matilda, Roald Dahl (who has his own issues)
Tuck Everlasting, Natalie Babbit
The Giver, Lois Lowry
Curious George, Margret Rey and H. A. Rey
Rikki-Tikki-Tavi, Rudyard Kipling (again, not a rec)
The Jungle Book, Rudyard Kipling (again, not a rec)
The Left Behind series, Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins (again, not a rec)
The Bible (not a rec but like… not not a rec lol)
The Real Mother Goose, Blanche Fisher Wright
Circe, Madeline Miller
Mythology, Edith Hamilton
D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths, Edgar Parin d'Aulaire and Ingri Parin d'Aulaire
The Very Hungry Caterpillar, Eric Carle
Llama Llama Red Pajama, Anna Dewdney
The Will of the Many, James Islington
Spartacus, Howard Fast
Palestine +100, Basma Ghalayini
Thyme Travellers, Sonia Sulaiman
The Antiquarian's Object of Desire, India Holton
Credits
Hosts: Sofia Leung, nicholae cline, and Jen Brown
Audio Engineer: Aaron Yin
Copyright: Copyright © 2026 We Reads Podcast. All rights reserved. This podcast and its contents are the property of We Here LLC and its hosts, and may not be reproduced, distributed, or transmitted in any form or by any means without the prior written permission of the copyright owner, except for brief quotations used in reviews or promotional content.
Note: As a Bookshop.org affiliate, we earn a small commission if you purchase books from our Bookshop. Revenue goes to scholarships for We Here’s Community Study participants.