Episode 2: So you think you’re too good for genre?
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Summary
Episode 2: nicholae cline, Jen Brown, Sofia Leung discuss their favorite genres and set the record straight: romances always have happy endings.
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Intro
nicholae: You’re listening to the We Reads podcast where we: nicholae,
Jen: Jen,
sofia: and Sofia talk about books, the authors we love and how our identities show up while we’re reading.
Jen: These books have brought us joy, nourished us and changed us for the better. We’re excited to discuss them with you!
nicholae
Y'all, can anyone remember why we wanted to talk about genres in the first place?
sofia
not really
Jen
That's a great question.
[laughter]
sofia
oh maybe because we all love genre
Jen Brown
Probably. That seems safe.
nicholae
My friend, genre.
[laughter]
Jen Brown
Know her. Love her.
nicholae
This is off to a good start already.
[laughter]
Sofia
Yes, it really is.
Jen
10 out of 10
[laughter]
Sofia
No notes
[more laughter]
nicholae
Best episode. Give us an award.
[more laughter, as Sofia adjusts her mic. Hosts joke about sticking their entire heads into the sound-dampening boxes that their mics are inside of.]
Jen
Yeah, we love genre. We love a category, I think.
sofia
I mean, we are librarians.
Jen
This is true.
sofia
I do love a fantasy and I know you both do also. But nicholae, you don't like sci-fi?
nicholae
I love sci-fi. Who said?
sofia
Oh, I don't know. I'm just looking at your list.
nicholae
Who lied to you?
sofia
I'm looking at your list and it's not on there.
nicholae
I'm coming for you. I put spec fic on mine because I'm fancy.
sofia
Ohhh. Let's talk about the difference. Yeah. What does that mean?
Jen Brown
Mmm.
sofia
Because I didn't put spec fic on mine.
nicholae
I mean, I think for me, it kind of...It emphasizes the speculative in science fiction. So, perhaps we could say all spec fic is sci-fi, but not all sci-fi is spec fic. I'm not saying that's true. I'm just sort of making things up as I go along.
sofia
No, I think that's true.
nicholae
But what I like about saying speculative fiction is that it really emphasizes the imagination, the imagining forward, the imagining other ways of being and living in the world, imagining other configurations of the world.
And I don't know, I think sci-fi to some degree has the capacity to do that in all of its forms across time, but there is a history of sci-fi that is more reacting to certain moments and creating worlds that are meant to kind of represent slant-wise things that are going on in the real world, in the in the time and place that it arises, right?
But there are other kinds of science fiction that are actually imagining totally different worlds, imagining different ways that things can be. And that is also necessarily intertwined with the present. It emerges from the present context. But I think it's more forward-looking than retrospective.
And that, to me, gets to the difference a little bit. But honestly, I think half the time when people say spec fic, they're just being pretentious.
[laughter]
And that's me. Sometimes I'm fancy.
Jen Brown
Pinkies up.
Sofia
Oh, so spec fic is for people who don't like genre. They're like, I'm too good for a genre.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm. I do sometimes get that vibe. I feel similarly to nicholae. I feel like I can vibe with spec fic. I feel like there are books that fall into that category and it's like, okay, this is giving and it makes sense here. But then there are times where I feel like people label something as spec fic to elevate it, like you said, away from genre. And then it's like, oh, I feel better about liking this because it's not science fiction. It's not fantasy. It's speculative.
Sofia
Interesting. So like what are some speculative fiction books off the top of your head that don't fall into fantasy or sci-fi?
Jen Brown
Mmm, that's a good question.
Sofia
Or like an author?
Jen
I kind of, you know…and I'm thinking about it like…it's not that those books don't fall into sci-fi fantasy because I would think of them as such, but they get given the label of speculative, maybe because something in the prose feels literary or something about it feels like it's dealing with bigger, more important themes. The one that's at the top of my mind is like the Broken Earth trilogy by N.K. Jemisin, which I feel like is, I mean, it could be both, right? It has elements of science fiction. It also has fantastical elements that aren't rooted in science necessarily, but like the science of earthquakes and shifting. But I just, I think that book is great for a lot of reasons, but I've heard people talk about it—even other authors on other podcasts talk about it—like it's this literary thing that transcends just mere fantasy / sci-fi. It is the speculative, like halfway to literary type thing.
And I don't know. I feel like I'd be curious to know what N.K. Jemisin would say about her own books because like, I don't know. Is that what she thinks? Like, I think she wrote it as a sci-fi fantasy. But I don't know.
nicholae
Right.
Sofia
That's interesting.
nicholae
Yeah, I feel like there's kind of an elevation happening. So because of the trappings of genre, people sometimes feel a certain amount of judgment towards or shame about their love of genres. I think especially...
Jen Brown
That part.
nicholae
Right, I mean, I think especially genres like thrillers or romance. I think there was a time when sci-fi and fantasy felt more that way. I think fantasy still does to a certain degree. I think sci-fi has been elevated already to a certain degree in contemporary years so that it feels more literary and can actually be a part of the canon in a way that some of these other genres cannot.
Sofia
Oh, is it cause like—white man?
nicholae
Maybe so. I mean, I think more and more white male authors have ventured into...like literary authors have ventured into sci-fi territory, but also most authors that are really well known in sci-fi are white and male, especially what would be considered like the classical canon of the 20th century.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm. Yes.
nicholae
I mean, for me, all spec fic is sci-fi, like I said, but not all sci-fi is spec fic. Um It's, you know, all gravies are sauces, but not all sauces are gravies.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
I just, I mean, I also think, you know, to your question, Sofia, I think of people like Kazuo Ishiguro and Richard Powers who play with sci-fi themes or, you know, spec within speculative territory.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
Yeah, yes.
nicholae
I don't know that they would necessarily consider themselves science fiction authors, but there's a certain amount of like speculation and fabulation happening in their books, especially, you know, The Overstory from Richard Powers.
sofia
Right.
nicholae
And you know almost all of the works from Kazuo Ishiguro over the past few years have done that as well.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
Yeah, those are great examples. Although I didn't even realize Richard Powers did that because I don't think I've read any of his books. But yeah.
nicholae
Yeah, he has for a while, like Galatea and The Overstory are the two that first come to mind for me from him in this territory.
sofia
Interesting. Yeah, I guess like I do like some speculative fiction, but actually sometimes when it says that I'm like, oh, it's going to be like too literary for me. Am I just going to be oh my God, get to that point, man.
Jen Brown
Right.
sofia
So I actually still really more strongly identify with like saying I like fantasy / sci-fi over speculative fiction because I think if it's categorized as fantasy sci-fi, I will probably be more likely to like it versus if it was just categorized as speculative fiction.
Even though, like for example, I didn't realize N.K. Jemisin was, like a lot of people were talking about her as like a spec fic person because I always identified her as like a fantasy sci-fi person.
Jen Brown
Right, right, right. And to be fair, I have heard white men say this. And so what I wonder is if that has something to do with them, I don't know, the inner the inner world of white men doing something, jumping through mental hoops of trying to either validate or maybe that's their way of feeling like, oh, we're giving her props, but it's also really kind of…
sofia
yeah
Jen Brown
It almost feels like it has the opposite effect.
sofia
Yeah. Yeah. It's like theory. Yeah.
Jen Brown
Yes, theory versus practice! Yes, it is like that. It feels a lot like that.
sofia
yeah
Jen Brown
But I'm with you, Sofia. When we were prepping for this episode and I was thinking, what are my favorite genres? I specifically wrote down, you know, fantasy. Specifically because I like the just I've just…ever since childhood fantasy has been that escapist place of just whether it's like…really vast sprawling epics or, you know, more character focused, tight focus, like that. I feel like that's my jam. I wrote down science fantasy, which is another thing that I think is like I think of a little differently than science fiction.
Sometimes sci-fi has a hard sort of scientific focus. And I'm a fan of like, the softer sci-fi, the softer side of science that's more like it's science fiction, but magic, basically.
[laughter] Technology and magic.
sofia
Okay, give me an example.
Jen Brown
I mean, okay, what is a good example? Leslye Penelope…
sofia
Yeah, it was like a song of something, something.
Jen Brown
yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, I think that that's a good one because that one has like a more modern like setting as well, like almost like a golden age-esque. I think there's like automobiles and things in it, but then there's this magical side of things. Yes, I gotta, I can't remember the name of that book, but it it is a series that was really good by Leslye Penelope. [The book is] in the romance [category], as well. Romance slash sci-fi fantasy category. But yes, I love me some horror. And I have to actually, you know what, I got to eat some, I got to eat my words here because I'm looking at my notes. I did write speculative fiction.
[laughter]
As one of my favorite…But I, but I, I like, qualified it with “character-driven” speculative fiction, which I don't even know….I think I know what that means, but I don't even know if I could name a bunch of books with that. But basically—any genre that falls under that umbrella of sci-fi fantasy but where we care about the characters more than we do about the world.
Sofia
Okay, gotcha.
Jen Brown
Like I wasn't as big of a Game of Thrones fan, in terms of the books. I mean, I watched all of the TV show up until the awful end. But like, I want a book that's gonna put me in the mind of the character, and like really drive through what they're going through…their inner world. I want a rich inner world of the character, in the speculative space, I guess.
nicholae
On the topic of character-driven sci-fi, spec fic, whatever we want to go with in terms of our terminology, I think of the Ancillary Justice series, the Anne Leckie series. That, to me feels, like it does a really good job of balancing both like a real richly conceived world and deep world building on the one hand with a desire and a commitment to exploring the subjectivity of a character. And…it's also just a fascinating premise. So it's also doing that thing that I think sci-fi does really well, which is: take an idea or a theme and really go with it and explore it in a, I think, compelling, and intriguing, and new way, right? So like the subjectivity of a quote individual who's not actually just an individual, right? But who has been individuated or separated in some way from this other kind of consciousness that they otherwise experience and were born from. Right? So to me, that book, that series does a really good job of balancing these two. It doesn't sacrifice world building for character development, or character development for world building, for example.
sofia
Yeah, I don't quite remember what the book [Ancillary Justice], like the whole premise of the book. I have, like, a very sketchy memory of it. Can you remind me?
nicholae
Yeah, so basically the main character that you follow across the three books, and I haven't read the prequel—
sofia
There's a prequel?
nicholae
I think that came out later. I'm pretty sure there's a fourth one. I think it's a prequel. Maybe it's a sequel. I forget right now.
nicholae
But basically the premise [to Ancillary Justice] is: the main character is a ship. Right?
sofia
Right.
nicholae
There's a consciousness that the ship has, and it has these ancillaries. And the ancillaries are these bodies of, spoiler alert, [laughter] formerly colonized peoples from other planets. And the ship can then spread its consciousness to these ancillaries, these bodies. Right?
sofia
Right
nicholae
And so because of a series of circumstances and events in the books, in the first book, the ancillary who's the main character of the story is separated from their ship and then goes on an adventure to sort of re-write herself.
sofia
Yes, yes.
nicholae
And I believe in the series, everyone uses she/her pronouns. Am I remembering this correctly?
Jen Brown
I think that's right.
sofia
Yes.
nicholae
She's trying to make her way back to her ship, and then the story ensues.
sofia
Yeah. And it actually, now I'm remembering, yeah, that was a great summary. Whenever I talk to somebody about that book and like, It's very telling to me when they don't remember the pronouns, like they, or they misremember the pronouns of like everybody in the book or like who they think.
Jen Brown
Mm.
sofia
Isn't the main character called Breq?
Jen Brown
Yes.
sofia
Yeah, like, or they like misgender Breq.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
Or like, they have a gender assigned to Breq, because Breq is technically an it.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
That is always very interesting to me.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
Right. It is. And the book, I think, does a good job of not describing key details about bodies and what they have or what they don't have, right?
sofia
Yes. Right.
Jen Brown
Right.
nicholae
There are moments where it comes out for different characters, but the book does not, sort of, make that really obvious for the reader. And I think that was obviously an intentional choice. And I think it's a good choice.
sofia
Yeah, and actually I feel like from what I remember, Breq had a hard time telling people's genders
Jen Brown
Mmmm.
nicholae
Right, because the empire, I believe, uses, everyone uses she/her, but she ends up going to planets where that's not the case. Where this like dimorphism is more clearly encoded in language and culture too.
sofia
Right, right, right.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
So she has struggles figuring out who is like what gender in that cultural context.
sofia
Right, right.
nicholae
And of course, she is perceived in a certain way based on the cultural context that she is in.
sofia
Right.
Jen Brown
Yeah. And I just have to say, like, as an audiobook lover, I loved the narration for that book. And I thought it struck such a beautiful tone. If folks haven't listened to it, it's the same actor from Bridgerton [Adjoa Andoh], though I did not know her—
sofia
What?
Jen Brown
I know! When—
sofia
Who?
Jen Brown
It's Lady Dansbury, I think?
sofia
Really?
Jen Brown
[Googles it.]
Yes! Yes. She is the narrator for all three books. And she's fantastic.
sofia
She's got an amazing voice. Okay, great.
Jen Brown
I know! I know.
sofia
That’s great. I gotta listen to it again.
Jen Brown
You should. Yes.
nicholae
Can you think of other character-driven—it doesn't have to be speculative fiction—but character-driven genre fiction? That, maybe in some ways, kind of defies the expectations of the genre?
sofia
Oh, defies expectations. [laughter] That's going to be harder.
Jen Brown
[laughter]
nicholae
Or, yeah, I mean, I think there is this conception, we know it's not true, but there's a conception that genre is formulaic.
sofia
Right.
Jen Brown
Mmm.
nicholae
Right. And that the focus is, in many cases, not on character development as individuals and their individual subjectivities and relationships. More so how they fit into certain tropes, certain patterns. Again, we know that's not true, but are there any that sort of stand out to either of you, from any genre, that really challenge that preconception of genres?
sofia
Right. I mean, I feel like all the fantasy I read is kind of, like, character driven.
Jen Brown
Mmm.
sofia
And I wouldn't even say that it's outside the norm to have it not be that way. Because I think it's not just for me about the worldbuilding, but also the characters, right? Like I have to care about the characters.
nicholae
Yeah.
Jen Brown
Yeah. Yeah.
sofia
Because even like we were talking last time about Murderbot.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
And like the world there, it's like, who cares, right? Cause it's kind of like any old planet and they're on space stations, and space stations are never that interesting. They're just like places you pass through, like an airport. But Murderbot, itself, is like the main draw, right? You're there for them, or ‘it’ [speaking of Murderbot’s gender]. You're like there to see how much it doesn't want to care about this thing it ends up caring about. So I think that's…yeah, I think it would be hard actually to find something that doesn't do that for me, that I actually finished.
Jen Brown
That's real. And, like, what I think of is…actually, the first thing that came to mind with that question is the [books] that *don't* do that in my reading journey, or the [books] that felt like they didn't.
nicholae
Mm-hmm.
Jen Brown
And this is no shade [laughter] because we all come of age at different times…and different books, you know, hit for different things. But I was thinking about the early young adult / YA boom of, kind of like, mousy white girl protagonist who is a mirror for a presumably white reader. And everything…the trappings of diversity around that character, i.e. one stray black vampire over here, one, ah…you know, disabled character over there—everything exists to further the main characters, almost like delusions of, [in a whiny tone] “I'm not special, but oh everything revolves around me.” Like… [laughter]
sofia
[laughter] I would love to name names.
Jen Brown
[laughter] I know. Okay. I will name one name because it's old at this point. But the Divergent series for me really did that.
sofia
Oh, okay. Yes, yes.
nicholae
And that was a whole explosion of books exactly like that because of the market and commodification of that particular kind of narrative, which made every white person feel like they were the main character in their lives.
sofia
Yeah.
Jen Brown
That’s right. Yes.
sofia
Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
nicholae
If they didn't already.
Jen Brown
In a dystopian universe that somehow they were subjected to oppression within, not actually, almost like getting to imagine themselves as not the oppressor, but the oppressed.
nicholae
Right
Jen Brown
Which is, yes, as you say, like there was a whole market for that. And I think when I was thinking of like, “Oh, I love character driven speculative fiction,”...[I meant] I then am excited for the type of character, or the person we choose to follow, being outside that dominant frame that was set with some of those books.
sofia
Yes.
Jen Brown
Not all YA did that or does that. This is not me bashing YA. I do love YA. But there were books. There were books….there were…there were several books, like y'all said, that just...used that formula. And it almost felt like, well, this isn't a real character that I can—like you say—Sofia, care about.
sofia
Yeah.
Jen Brown
This person feels like a cardboard cutout for your white reader to graft themselves onto.
Sofia
Yeah,
Jen Brown
I cannot do that. I'm not reading this book feeling like I can do that.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
And I wonder if one of the the things that draw us to certain genres, in particular, like magical realism, like sci-fi, like fantasy, et cetera, is that not only are there main and key characters who are not white, but there's also the possibility of imagining a totally different world that doesn't center white and Western worldviews, ontologies, epistemologies, right?
Jen Brown
Yes.
nicholae
That's something that is so much harder to do in any other genre because, you know, “literary fiction” tends to be quite realist.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
But in sci-fi and fantasy, you can imagine a totally different world, right?
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
With a different history, a different present, and a different future. And that, to me, is really powerful.
Jen Brown
Yes! that part
sofia
Okay, this is…Jen, when you were like, “this is like the kind of thing I don't want to read…” Have you guys ever read Only a Monster?
Jen Brown
No.
nicholae
No, I haven't.
Jen Brown
Who wrote that?
sofia
Ah, Vanessa Len.
Jen Brown
Oh, no.
sofia
So it's really interesting. And the third book is coming out this August. So you'll get the whole trilogy done, which like, I gotta tell you, there's cliffhangers at the end of each one…and it's….ahh I can never wait. I'm like, why, why are you making me wait? Um, but it actually hasn't been that long. I think maybe only a year between each book. But Only a Monster is YA. and I guess it's like fantasy. It's very character driven. And like even the world building is really light. But like you can get into it because it's sort of like our world. It mostly takes place in England, I think.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
And the character finds out that she's technically a monster who can like travel in time.
Jen Brown
Mm.
sofia
But it's like an inherited trait, like a family trait. And then there's like also other things, like other magical things that people can do.
Jen Brown
Ooh.
sofia
But it's still very like, in this world in a way, like an alternative version of this world. And um it kind of like flips a lot of genre stuff on its head. You get a lot of like twists and turns you don't see coming. There's like a sprinkle of romance.
Jen Brown
Love that.
sofia
Even a sprinkle of a love triangle. Um, and it's like, you know, it's sort of like the question of like, who's a hero, who's a monster kind of thing.
Jen Brown
Mmm.
EDS
sofia
And part of the reason they're monsters is because in order to travel through time, they have to take it like, they suck off like pieces of people's lives. Like they just have to like touch somebody, I think.
Jen Brown
Ooh, like stealing.
sofia
And then it like sucks away like a couple years of their life in order to travel.
Jen Brown
stealing time all that oh cool
sofia
Yeah, stealing time. Yes, that's what it is. Yes, super cool. The magic is super interesting. Like I said, really like light world building, but not in a way that you even really notice. You're like, oh, I'm suddenly immersed in this world. It's amazing.
The characters are really interesting. There's like a lot of side characters. And then my God, when you get to the end of the second book, you're gonna be like, what the fuck just happened? Did I just read that? But that's also what happened at the beginning of the first book.
sofia
And i don't know how she managed to do it again, even like leveled up and not sorry, but not just like Sarah J Maas, who people are like, oh my God, she just blew my mind.
Jen Brown
Wow. Yes.
sofia
I like those books too, but this is not that.
Jen Brown
Right. Right.
sofia
This is way better, sorry.
Jen Brown
Okay. I got to add that to the list. I love that.
sofia
so good.
nicholae
Shots fired.
Jen Brown
I love that
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nicholae
What is a genre?
Jen Brown
Mmm I was thinking about this leading up to us recording. You know, I was thinking, okay, in my mind, a genre is something that has, it's it's a way of categorizing the type of thing something is.
And that thing is defined by the signposts or in this case, the reader expectations that people come to associate with books like that. So if it's fantasy, most people expect a magic system.
Or if it's science fiction, most people expect science somewhere or technology or something like that. So I was thinking like it's It's the little blobs that we pattern recognize. We sort of pattern associate books.
Jen Brown
And then we get all flustered when we're like, oh, this thing doesn't fit in anything. It's so interesting.
sofia
Yeah, and we were talking about how like all of, you know, we like categories to a degree. And I do think like some of this is marketing because, and as you, you know, you already mentioned some like the speculative fiction stuff of like, oh, this gets to be speculative fiction because we want it to like make it snootier for people.
Jen Brown
True.
Jen Brown
Yes.
sofia
versus like some real hardcore.
Jen Brown
Get it on the New York Times list.
sofia
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. and think it's like really, to me, more about marketing. But then also, you know, nicholae, you said before about like people think it's formulaic.
And I think there's definitely, as Jen said, expectations. But especially, I think this is like even more true of romance because romance has like really specific genre specifications that I don't think any of the other ones do necessarily. At least, i don't know, someone correct me.
Jen Brown
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
sofia
But like, for example, yes.
nicholae
It's also a really old genre. I mean, romance stories are one of the oldest kinds of stories.
Jen Brown
Good point.
sofia
Right. And I think it's like, it has to have a happy ending. And then is there there's like some other genre convention that I can't remember. Is it like romance has to be the main story line?
Jen Brown
Yes, right. Like it can't be the B plot.
sofia
Right.
Jen Brown
There are stories with romance.
Jen Brown
Even if it's a happy ending, it it wouldn't be a romance book.
sofia
Yes, exactly.
nicholae
And I wonder if that's, so I don't know a lot about romance. It's not a category that I read a ton, but from some of the work I did in a former life in a different position, it seemed like quite a few, what I would call romance novels, romance stories did not in fact have happy endings.
sofia
Then it’s not romance.
nicholae
so i wonder if So I wonder if that's always just been the case. I mean, obviously romance as a category has coalesced into something as we know it now.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
But has that been true across time?
sofia
I think even the older romances I've read, but I haven't read like all the way back to the beginning, But I do think, well, I do listen to Fated Mates, which is like a romance podcast.
Jen Brown
Yes. Mm-hmm.
sofia
I know Jen does too, but it's like, and they've, they actually go back and like talk to trailblazers is what they call them. Like people who have been like the first of whatever to do something in romance.
Jen Brown
Yep.
sofia
And I feel like that is like a genre convention they've said seems to have always existed. i don't know, maybe I'm not remembering correctly.
Jen Brown
No, I was going to layer in that they have an actual history episode. That was like one of the first ones I listened to.
sofia
Oh yeah, okay.
Jen Brown
It was like they covered the whole like where romance began to where it is now. And I think you're right. I remember them saying the happy ending has always been part of it in response to women being fridged and or kind of harmed excessively in other fiction things, genres.
sofia
Yes, you're right. Right, horror for example.
nicholae
That's good to know. Cause I was going back to like Romeo and Juliet, which obviously does not have a happy ending.
sofia
But that's not a romance in the traditional sense.
nicholae
Well, that's a good question. Like what makes it a romance? I know we're getting like maybe too deep into the romance part of it
sofia
No, I never think so.
Jen Brown
Never too deep.
sofia
Mm-hmm. [laughter]
nicholae
but i know Romeo and Juliet is, Romeo & Juliet is a play.
I would consider it a romance story. know obviously it's a tragedy as well in certain respects
Jen Brown
I was going to say, i think it's a tragedy. I wouldn't call it a romance.
sofia
It's a romantic, romantic tragedy, but not a romance.
Jen Brown
Yes. Romantic. Yes.
nicholae
oh that's yeah that's a good distinction
sofia
Yeah, because I would even say that like romance authors and like true blue romance readers will ride really hard for this and say, if it doesn't have a happy ending, it's not a romance.
Jen Brown
Yep. Yep.
sofia
Like period, the end. [laughter]
Jen Brown
And like, right, we can have different sub genres under the romance umbrella, like a dark romance where maybe it's more like tormented or tortured.
sofia
Yeah.
Jen Brown
But it's it is funny because I also think there is ah an element of ah like a larger association of like at least in the past, of women writing fiction as being romantic. Like, I remember having not read Jane Eyre, having not read Wuthering Heights. And even though Wuthering Heights is like definitely not a romance, why did I watch it?
sofia
no
Jen Brown
I didn't read it. I was watching one of the adaptations. But I was like, ooh, get a little Pride and Prejudice fix here. It's not. It is so not.
sofia
I know.
Jen Brown
And I think sometimes labels get applied to things across genres based on the author's identity. And sometimes those labels are mistaken.
sofia
Yeah, like women's fiction.
Jen Brown
um Yes. Yes. Right.
nicholae
Yeah, that's that's so helpful because some of the novels that I would put in the kind of classic romance genre, like like Madame Bovary, Gone with the Wind,
sofia
Oh, no. [laughter]
Nicholae
Anna Karenina, like those to me are romance stories.
sofia
Romantic tragedy. [laughter]
nicholae
Yes, they're they're very sad.
sofia
Oh my God, no.
sofia
But see, like, for example, there are things like bully romance where like the…
Jen Brown
oh right
nicholae
Iike the comfort harm stories.
sofia
Yeah, it's like so weird where the... Well, I've actually only read like the male main character is the bully and then the female main character is like the pursued later. Because usually what happens... Well, the only kind of bully romance i like is when...They're bullying the female character because actually what they do is really like this person and they're too dumb to realize it. And then they have to like do a whole 180, right?
nicholae
It's so romantic.
sofia
That's what I mean, right? It doesn't seem like it would be romance, but um it's like the wooing of this person because they're like, I did you so wrong. So I have to bend all the way backwards and like turn almost into basically a whole different person in order to win this person over. And then, you know, like seeing that storyline. And again, there's very few authors who can do this well. And so I actually don't really like bully romance except for like two.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I might need to check out those two for, you know, research because I haven't read any of this, but I'm curious.
sofia
Are you writing a bully?
Jen Brown
No, no, no. Just research. I mean, that's a loose excuse to be like.
sofia
i see what you're saying.
Jen Brown
Oh,
sofia
Never Sweeter, Charlotte Stein is one of them. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jen Brown
okay. Noted.
sofia
It's like it's ah kind of amazing what she does where you're like, I hate this person and now I fucking love this person.
Jen Brown
I'm always impressed by that in terms of any author who can do that with a character, especially if it makes you by the end really, like you believe the change. You're like, oh, I'm rooting for this person, whereas I did not in the beginning.
sofia
Yeah, but again, it's like most of the time I don't like bully romances because you're like, yeah, this is not romantic at all, especially if you're like
Jen Brown
Right. This is just emotional abuse.
sofia
Yeah, it's just like, I think also part of what makes that one good is that you didn't see any of the bullying. We're like past that part.
Jen Brown
Oh, that's a smart choice.
sofia
So now we're at the part where he's like trying to woo her.
Jen Brown
Uh-huh.
sofia
Because once the bullying is actually in there, I'm like, ugh, gone. I'm not, I can't read this.
Jen Brown
Right. Right. And see that, and y'all know, writer brain here, that is a smart authorial choice to make. Like what's on the page and how that influences the reading experience.
Jen Brown
Like why does that need to be there? You can just say he was an asshole or they were an asshole.
sofia
Yes.
Jen Brown
Whoever the romance interest is, you can say they were an asshole.
sofia
Yeah.
Jen Brown
But what is the what is the purpose of showing it?
Jen Brown
Yeah.
nicholae
In that podcast, I think it was that you mentioned where they're tracing the history of romance.
sofia
Oh, Fated Mates. Yeah.
nicholae
What did they trace it to? Like what genres to or what time periods and context did they trace it to?
Jen Brown
If I remember right, I think they went as far back as the 70s or the 60s. And they they had like mentioned specific names of stuff.
I will definitely dig that episode up for a show notes.
Jen Brown
um Because I don't remember if they connected it to a genre. I just remembered them talking about second wave feminism, this idea of like women. And they were very this why I think Sofia and I like this podcast, because they're both two white women. They're very aware of their whiteness. And they were acknowledging like, yeah, this was the let's be real. the The roots of romance started with white women's like feminist awakenings and sort of wanting to write elements of desire That were more with a gaze that felt authentic to them and not through a gaze that was like patriarchal.
nicholae
Right.
Jen Brown
um But I don't remember if they connected it to a specific genre. Like I don't remember them saying it began with literary or like it sounded like it was just like fully...women started writing romance. Oh, I think they were talking specifically about it started in a smaller way with like small presses, you know, like um Harlequin, which is not small, but I think at one point there were zines and small presses like Harlequin that just were like, we're going to focus on women's fiction, like send us your stories.
And then, you know, local book clubs and reading groups sprang up around those offerings. And then once it started to show that it was profitable, You had larger companies, you had Avon Books. They were tracking it as like publishers began to take note and were like, there's money here.
sofia
Hmm.
nicholae
That's so fascinating and helpful I mean, this makes so much sense why we're thinking about it differently. Cause I was thinking about like medieval feudal court culture and the kinds of stories that were told there that really, you know, you know, aristocrats who needed entertainment, who wanted, that wanted to reflect particular worldviews and values. And I think especially thinking about desire.
nicholae
And so what was, it what acceptable forms that desire could take, what relationships should look like. So I'm thinking about genre and romance in particular as not just particular, a particular like pattern and content, but also what it's doing in the world and why it emerges where it does. So form or a genre emerging within a particular cultural context and why.
And I think I was tracing it way further back in time. And so this is helpful to kind of think about it more in terms of the the way we think about romance now and its emergence in particularly mid-century, 20th century. Of course, we can go back to the the Jane Austen's, right?
But specifically in its marketing and commodification in the 20th century is is very helpful for me in thinking about it.
sofia
Yeah, because I realized like, yes, Pride and Prejudice is like, I think often named as like one of the first romances. But I don't think because like you said, her her contemporaries like, oh, my God, did I just forget her name?
The Wuthering Heights. oh Emily Bronte.
nicholae
Bronte
sofia
Right. Literally was like, it's not Emily Dickinson. It's the other Emily. um where you know they're like sort of writing i guess it seems kind of like a similar vibe but it's like gothic horror almost
nicholae
Right, right. Which is why I like it. [laughter] I don't want a happy ending. Don't give me one.
sofia
Right. Everyone must die.
nicholae
That's what I want.
sofia
And maybe, but like, okay, let's, let's go talk about horror because i don't really read horror. And I'm always curious, like why i don't want to be scared. [laughter] I don't want to be scared walking down the hallway of my little apartment that someone's going to pop out of the bathroom. And there's like, you know, only so many rooms. I live in New York City. Like there's not a big apartment, but I don't want to be scared. [laughter] Trying to feel like, Oh, somebody about to pop out of there. So like, why do you guys like horror?
Jen Brown
ah I think I wasn't – I wouldn't have called myself a horror reader until relatively recently. And I think it's because I didn't understand – like, I think it's because I was thinking of horror, first of all, in a film context, because I was never somebody who liked, you know – slasher movies or like super murdery gore.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Jen Brown
But then over the last couple of years, I started to pay more attention to like horror subgenres and realizing, oh, just like fantasy, just like sci-fi, horror has different subgenres that I am drawn to. Like specifically something about homes as horrific is like, it's just like catnip to me. Like I think Even though there's probably a lot of books, I'm sure there's books that touch on this before it, but the first one I read of ah recently was Mexican Gothic. And that was so...
nicholae
So good.
Jen Brown
Oh, my God. Something about the way that the house and the body and and just the self in that. and Oh, yeah. I don't know. I just I loved that one.
So homes. And then the body is a site of monstrosity. There were some short stories that did this really well. um there's ah it was really unsettling. It a short story called. A Study in Ugliness by H. Puyo, I believe. And it's a um it is like this story about a character, a girl in all-girls boarding school dealing with the monstrosity and the ugliness of girlhood, of coming of into oneself. And this character is like dark. She does some very dark things by the end of the story. And it's almost like she ends up meeting that darkness in a mirror, like she sees this dark version of herself in a mirror, this thing that's like infesting her that feels like it's taking her and she gives into it.
And I think that's why I'm drawn to horror. It is about confronting the dark, scary parts internally or surrounding in a place that should feel safe but doesn't.
But then outside of that, like, I still don't like murderer stories. I don't I'm not here for like it needs to be like that kind of horror for me to get into it.
sofia
But isn't it too much like real life? [laughter]
Jen Brown
I think maybe that's why I like it, because I'm like, oh, I feel that inner sense of like, what if I'm a monster? What if there is this part of me that I don't want to like, I just I feel almost comfort seeing a character go through that
sofia
Oh, interesting.
So you like body horror?
Jen Brown
I do.
sofia
Oh, no, I think I get grossed out by it.
Jen Brown
That's real. That's real.
nicholae
See, i'm I'm on Jen's wavelength on this one. Home, it's really psychological horror, I think, is what vibes with me the most.
Jen Brown
Mmmm
nicholae
And for me, many of these stories, these horror stories that focus on the home and the body actually are psychological horror in a certain respect.
nicholae
I know I talked a little bit previously about House of Leaves.
nicholae
To me, that was the first horror story that I really or contemporary horror story that I really loved and resonated with me and just shifted what I thought about in terms of what was compelling to me in literature and what a story can do. Of course, House of Leaves is an experimental novel. It's really weird in all kinds of ways. So that was very evocative and compelling to me as well.
But it's something to do with the idea of a place can be more can be bigger, can contain multitudes and also horrors that it doesn't seem to be able to, that it defies your expectations and your perception of what reality is and what being in a place can feel like, what you can experience there.
sofia
Hmm.
nicholae
That to me resonated with me and I think my experience, one of the reasons why I really like body horror, I mean, I like body horror of all kinds, and that started at a pretty young age with the Kronnenberg David Kronnenberg movies and series like the Hellraiser series.
um and And those movies, I'm talking about movies now, but the Hellraiser series is based off of a series of books by Clive Barker, which actually kind of perfectly helps me illustrate this point
sofia
Oh, OK.
nicholae
because I think a lot of horror for many, for many queer and trans people, but also for many queer and trans authors, body horror is a way to, to explore the way our bodies feel and are acted upon that realism just can't quite capture, can't quite express.Right? So some of the really early horror novels and horror stories that resonated with me did explore some of these issues.
you know I'm thinking of Caitlin Kiernan and Poppy Bright and Clive Barker but also Octavia Butler, right? You know, exploring some of these elements of body horror that help us understand like what our bodies are, what they can do, how they're constrained and imprisoned and en acted upon by outside forces and particularly cultural forces and, you know, our families,
people we interact with as we move through the world, that to me was not something that I could put into words at the time, but was nevertheless really resonant for me and my experience of otherness. And I think sometimes even objection as a kid that that i that I felt in the world, that I felt in my family. And that interest of mine in this particular genre has definitely stayed with me across time. I mean, I'm thinking of, you know, Her Body and Other Parties short story Collection, which is so good, Gretchen Felker Martin's Manhunt, River Solomon, Akwaeke Emezi, I may be saying some of their names wrong, but those kinds of stories and ways of exploring the body have just really worked well for me in the present and I feel are of a lineage with some of these older stories that I was really into when I was younger.
sofia
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think I always like want to read some of those. like ah you know Actually, the body horror thing that I realized I don't like body horror is actually an Octavia Butler book, but I can't remember which one now. It's like, ah are they aliens or something?
Jen Brown
Is it the Xenogenesis trilogy?
sofia
Yes.
Jen Brown
It's Dawn and...
sofia
Yes. I tried to read Dawn.
Jen Brown
Yes, I like those.
sofia
And then there was something with tentacles or whatever.
nicholae
I need to.
sofia
and I was like, oh, no, no.
Jen Brown
Yes.
sofia
Okay, sorry. Goodbye.
nicholae
I eat that stuff up.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
But like if there's tentacles, but they're for some reason in like like sci-fi, like if you guys have read Stardust Grail, there's tentacles in that.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
But that doesn't been gross me out for some reason.
Jen Brown
hmm yeah
sofia
I think because the character already came with tentacles. Like it was just a tentacled thing and it wasn't like an add-on or something that like popped up later. um ah yeah I don't know why it just like really disturbed me and then I'm like, oh, can't go on.
But then I'm also like the person who I was watching Orange is the New Black. And do you remember like this scene the scene when Crazy Eyes pees on the floor?
Jen Brown
yeah
nicholae
Oh, yeah.
sofia
Then I was like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm out. I can't watch the series anymore.
Jen Brown
Ah [laughter]
nicholae
Well, if you can't do pee or tentacles, you have just eliminated so much fan fiction.
sofia
and I didn't.
Jen Brown
[laughter] Yes.
nicholae
We will not be doing an episode on kinky fan fiction. Sorry, audience.
sofia
No, no, no.
Jen Brown
Oh, no, we must.
sofia
I've read, okay, I've read romance with tentacles and actually that does not bother me.
sofia
It's just like in certain, I guess, context where I'm like, there wasn't supposed to be tentacles there. Hilarious.
nicholae
That'll be a me and Jen episode.
sofia
yeah
nicholae
if you If you would like an erotic fanfiction episode, like and subscribe.
Jen Brown
I got some recs.
nicholae
Let us know in the comments.
Jen Brown
That's right. I love it.
sofia
ah
Jen Brown
Yeah. Yeah.
sofia
No, no, no, no.
Jen Brown
i love it
sofia
Not for me.
nicholae
So you're not into horror. Jen and I are into horror. What are some other genres we just don't fuck with?
Jen Brown
mmm
nicholae
For me, I will say it is kind of historical fiction. Never been that interested in it. It has never done much for me, but I'm curious if anyone else fucks with it because I could be convinced.
Jen Brown
yeah
nicholae
I'm starting to be convinced on romance, but they've got to be queer.
Jen Brown
YES
sofia
I think, no, yeah no, yeah.
nicholae
Sorry, cis straights.
Jen Brown
Yeah, well, for sure. For sure. yeah
sofia
then there's definitely a romance for everyone is how I feel, i think.
Jen Brown
That's right. That's right.
sofia
But anyway, that's just me, but we will find the one for you.
Jen Brown
Yes, we will.
sofia
In fact, I will start looking immediately.
nicholae
Turn this episode into a recommendation engine for me, please.
sofia
Yes. Okay, one of my favorite things to do. Historical fiction depends. They have to be... It has to be pretty specific. And I don't even... I can't even think of any off the top of my head right now that... I, like, really used to, like, historical fiction when I was, like, maybe high school, college. I read a lot of historical fiction. And, like, the one that I can think of off the top of my head was this, like... um It was like a series based on Napoleon's wife. I don't remember which Napoleon is it the first, second or third? Who knows? One of those, the main one. um He was married to this lady named Josephine. And so like it was a trilogy feature like about her life. And that was really interesting to me. But now I'm like, oh, is it featuring a white person during World War Two, like Boresville. Isn't that like all of them now? um Or like they get really popular and I'm like, oh, my God, who cares?
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
It just seems like there's, yeah, it just seems like there's a lot of overlap between historical fiction and military fiction and absolutely hard pass.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
I just like don't care.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
No, thank you.
sofia
Yes.
Jen Brown
Extreme hard pass.
nicholae
I don't need to read about war unless it's happening in space or involves magic.
sofia
Yes, exactly.
nicholae
But I… does anyone remember the Clan of the Cave Bear book or that or that series?
sofia
Yes.
Jen Brown
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
nicholae
Because when I was a very young child, when my mother was grocery shopping, I would sit in the magazine and like a mass market paperback section and just read those books. So this is like sort of an exception, I guess, to
Jen Brown
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
sofia
Is that historical fiction?
nicholae
it's prehistoric fiction because it's about like Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon humans.
sofia
Oh.
nicholae
So it's basically fantasy, you know?
sofia
Right. I never read it, but I saw it everywhere. Right. That's kind of like where I land now is that if it's historical, but it's sort of alternative history, then I'll read it.
Jen Brown
See, yeah, I just don't, I don't know.
sofia
But I...
Jen Brown
Yeah, I can't really get into historical fiction. i I don't include romance in that because I think like Beverly Jenkins has a ton of historical stuff I want to dive into.
sofia
Special. Yes.
Jen Brown
But yeah, I'm with y'all. I can't, I can't touch it. Can't touch military. and I don't care. I think all of this or a lot of it dovetails with my extremist, No-go, which is just like white people solving crimes. So anything to do with mystery, crime, thriller, suspense. I just don't, I don't care. I don't care for your heroic, hero worship thing. And it's all it's just, it it gives always a light vibe of copaganda, no matter what it is. even or like authoritarian ganda.
sofia
Yeah,
Jen Brown
Like authoritarian ganda.
sofia
yeah, yeah. yeah
Jen Brown
It just feels like we're trying to say that the systems of punitive harm ultimately lead to positive outcomes. And I just don't think that's true.
sofia
No, agree.
nicholae
Yeah, it feels inherently very, that genre, I think thrillers, cop fiction, detective fiction, it feels inherently very conservative in the sense that it, I guess it seems like they often, obviously there are subversions of this. I'm thinking of The Crying of Lot 49, 47, which is it? 49.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
forty nine
nicholae
49. I just had a moment where I doubted myself. So obviously there are exceptions like The Crying of Lot 49, but for the most part, they seem… like they kind of fundamentally uphold a particular kind of faith in, you know, rational authority, social institutions. You know, you have the hero who can come in and restore order by solving crimes, suggesting that I think justice, it prevails and these social systems work.
sofia
yeah
nicholae
And i don't believe that at all. And I certainly don't want to read about, you know, cops, solving crimes and and doing good in the world when they do so much harm. So to me, that's just never been interesting to me.
Jen Brown
Yeah.
nicholae
and And to the extent that I hardly even think about thrillers or crime dramas or things like that.
Jen Brown
And it's oversaturated. I mean, my God, like every TV show, like Fox is only standing still outside of its excellent animation, like Bob's Burgers, because of like shows about these things. I don't know. there's There's always an NCIS. There's always a, there's always something.
sofia
I know, talk about formulaic, that's formulaic.
nicholae
absolutely
Jen Brown
Yes.
nicholae
but there are ones that i think do a good job
Jen Brown
Yeah.
nicholae
just speaking of tv of subverting that you know Pokwe DXW for example i think is really excellent
Jen Brown
Oh, I haven't seen that.
nicholae
and she is kind of kind of solving she's investigating things we'll say without giving too much about away
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
there's and there's a mystery
sofia
Yes. Yeah, I, you know, to go back to the military stuff, I generally don't like military stuff either. But have you read Yoon Ha Lee's Nine Fox Gambit and like that trilogy?
Jen Brown
I still need to read that.
nicholae
no
sofia
Because that's technically military sci-fi, but it's like, you know, like some of the other examples we've talked about.
Jen Brown
Hmm.
sofia
It's also about colonization and like the, I mean, I don't even want to say that because it makes it, you know, like sometimes when you're like, oh, this is like a tough but necessary read. And it's not really that. It's just like, this is what it's about. But it's also like so just so good that, You're like, yeah, that is, it's like reading, oh, like reading N. K. Jemisin, where you're like, I like to think of them sort of like, in similar ways, where you're like, I'm reading about really dark, heavy stuff, but they're so good at it that I don't mind. And, you know, technically the main characters are military characters, but the... What happens is is like this general who, it's like sci-fi, so it's all in space, but this the main character does this, like manages to win this like military campaign when they were all like, oh, she couldn't do it because she did some I forget the right word, but it's like they use math a lot. And, you know, I'm i'm not really down with math all the time, especially not in my sci-fi. But in this particular book, I'm like, oh, this makes total sense. Like, I don't need to know math in order to understand what's happening in the world. But she uses like some, it's almost like math is a religion to like the empire that they live in.
Jen Brown
Mmm.
sofia
And she uses what What is the word that's like, you're not, you're going against the religion. Oh my God.
Jen Brown
Oh.
sofia
um
nicholae
apostasy
sofia
Heretical. No, heretical.
nicholae
heretical
sofia
Yes.
Jen Brown
Mmm.
sofia
Heretical math. And somehow manages to win this battle because of it. And so as her reward, quote unquote, she gets... um They give her the um consciousness of a military general from like years ago, like decades or more, who's like kind of going insane and they have to share a body. And it's real wild, but it's so good. um It also kind of fucks with genre because the military general that enters the body, like she's She's technically a she/her and then the military general who enters her body is a he/him. And then you'll see what happens. I'm not going to tell you anything more, but it's a very interesting military sci fi that I wouldn't even categorize like in the normal way that military sci fi is done.
Jen Brown
I love when they're, I mean, I think that's the dope thing about genres in general. Like, even if there's categories we overall don't love, there's still things subverting in those categories because that's real.
sofia
Yeah, and then you're like, that's the only one I'll read of that.
Jen Brown
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's the exception. Although to be honest, my last, absolutely not.
sofia
Yeah.
Jen Brown
And I have yet to find anything that will actually fit this is anything with a writer as a main character.
sofia
Yeah.
Jen Brown
That is a genre too. That is a sub genre to me that I cannot stand because I am a writer. And I just feel, it feels so, feels very navel gaze-y.
sofia
Like them. Like the main character is a writer?
Jen Brown
Yes, and the story is about or partially about them struggling with their their art.
sofia
good writing. Yeah, okay.
Jen Brown
I don't mind stories about artists, other kind of art, musicians, painters, but like something about writers writing about writers.
sofia
No,
Jen Brown
I don't know. I can't do it.
sofia
so that's fair. mean I mean, don't even know if I really read any of those.
Jen Brown
There is, i mean, Nettie Okorafor just released like The Death of the Author, which that might be the only one I try to give a chance.
sofia
Oh, yeah.
Jen Brown
Everything else?
sofia
but you haven't read it yet.
Jen Brown
Mm-mm, mm-mm.
sofia
Yeah, I was curious about that too.
Jen Brown
Not yet. Right.
sofia
Yeah, the last thing I won't read is memoirs of white women learning to be brave.
nicholae
Pass
Jen Brown
I know that's right.
sofia
Hard pass. um Sorry, just not interested.
Jen Brown
Yup.
sofia
I can't. Okay, who's the one who's like really famous, who's like married to a soccer player?
Jen Brown
Like, oh, is it Victoria Beckham?
sofia
Like she she was like a, no, she was like this woman who, um,
Jen Brown
No.
sofia
She was married to a man. She had children with this man. And then something happened where she was like, i don't care about this man anymore. He's done me wrong or whatever. They divorced. She realizes she's gay. Yeah, Glennon Doyle. And now she's married to Abby Wambach.
sofia
And she has like a ton of these these memoirs and they have like a podcast and shit.
Jen Brown
Oh.
sofia
I think one of the books was like, I'm a some kind of animal, like a tiger or whatever. And I'm like, oh my God, give me a fucking break. You're not a tiger. You just like suddenly learn to be a person like your own person. And it you can do things yourself. Like, I don't know. It just seems like so weird to me that like, she's such a big deal. And the people fucking love her.
Oh, Untamed, yes, thank you to Imani, our producer.
Jen Brown
Wild. Huh.
sofia
Yeah, anything else we won't read?
Jen Brown
I don't think so. Not for me.
nicholae
Yeah i'll read basically anything if it has a good recommendation
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
sofia
Yeah.
Jen Brown
Yeah.
sofia
Well, also depends if the person likes the same kind of stuff I do. Yeah,
nicholae
What about microgenres you know the kind of rise and proliferation of microgenres is that something that you all ah paid attention to ah participated in you know i'm thinking of when you were talking Sofia i was thinking about the dandelion dynasty series, like silkpunk.
sofia
yeah, yeah.
nicholae
you know like very specific microgenres
Jen Brown
Yeah.
nicholae
Is that something that you all think about whenever you're reading or looking for things to read or recommending things
sofia
I mean, you both know I love a dark fantasy academia.
Jen Brown
yeah
sofia
If it's dark academia and it's got fantasy elements, I'm in.
Jen Brown
That's also on my list. Yep. And the one book I can say, and this is one that was like out there everywhere and I was excited to read it, but Ace of Spades, literally i was reading that book at like 1 a.m. My heart was pounding.
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Jen Brown
I had to turn. It was the first kind of really horrific, like horror in the sense that I think it was trying to be super suspenseful and it was working. Because there's Babel by R.F.
sofia
Right.
Jen Brown
Kuang, which is horrific, but it's right.
sofia
That's different
Jen Brown
It's it's a different kind of horror. This was like, oh my God, I got to turn the page and don't know, just see what's happening. So yeah, academia, horror dark academia or horror in academia, I'm into it. And then my other one was like, it's not actually, and don't think it's actually a microgenre, but I do love a space fantasy that has a politically epic scope with queer women caught in like a colonial system. Or I say space slash fantasy. So it could be space fantasy or just fantasy. But like The Traitor Baru Cormorant will always hit for me right every time.
sofia
Oh, I love that book.
Jen Brown
It's going to do it every time. Yeah.
sofia
Did you finish it? The trilogy?
Jen Brown
No, because I'm trash.
sofia
Me neither.
Jen Brown
I need to read the, I'm halfway through the second book. But A Memory Called Empire um by Arcady Martine.
sofia
Okay.
Jen Brown
Yeah, that's always going to do it for me.
sofia
I know, but side note about that one, which I did enjoy, but like, didn't you find it interesting that the ones who were like considered like other and marginalized were like essentially the white people.
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
sofia
And it was like, everybody else was dark.
Jen Brown
Right. You know what?
sofia
And I was like, ooh.
Jen Brown
That's a really good point. I didn't think of that. Because, right, everybody on her little station like, yes.
sofia
Yeah, they're all white.
Jen Brown
.Good point.
sofia
Yeah. But I also like that micro-genre.
Jen Brown
What about y'all?
nicholae
i did i talked a little bit about body horror but i think the other one that again these kind of subgenres or microgenres i think i'm stuck in the nineties when i first discovered reading and so i still think about things in these larger categories but i do find the proliferation of microgenres incredibly fascinating and in some ways really helpful in some ways i think they reify kind of commodification of literature but on the other hand i also think there's a potential argument for the democratization of
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
genre and taste as well because it allows people to find things that maybe escape capture by the market of course they're published but you can also find things outside of
Jen Brown
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
nicholae
kind of large market for publishing but so i don't i don't necessarily have sub or micro-genres that are named in a way that i could articulate and then express here but i really like ecological horror so that's
Jen Brown
yes
sofia
Hmm.
nicholae
the form of horror or sci-fi so i just adore Jeff Vandermmeer in almost everything he writes and the Southern Reach Trilogy
Jen Brown
Hmm.
nicholae
i mean just ruined me compelled me i really enjoyed the way that he explored both the the horror of the environment and environmental catastrophe but also the ways in which it impacts the body and it to me that series really helps show how intertwined and entangled our bodies are with our environment so what happens the environment also impacts our bodies
sofia
hmm
nicholae
so even if i wouldn't necessarily always find myself being drawn to what's sometimes called climate fiction although i loved Oryx and Crake when it came out so maybe i do, Terraformers i think is a really cool book but there is something in particular about Annihilation the first book and the series that did such an incredible and evocative job of conveying how the environment and the body are just they suffuse each other um and how the the ways in which the environment degrades and i guess basically what i'm trying to say is the porosity our porosity with our environments and how horrifying that is to realize but there is the reality of it and that has i think
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
consequences for how we think about our relationship with the environment too and those books do such a good job of not being didactic about it but just showing it and the horror of that and what the body can go through
sofia
Mm-hmm.
Jen Brown
You said that so beautifully.
sofia
And also is the reason I don't read that stuff. yeah
Jen Brown
and like You captured exactly why. I can't touch that book. That is on my list. I've only seen the movie, but obviously not.
sofia
Oh, how was the movie?
Jen Brown
I...
sofia
looks scary as hell.
Jen Brown
It was terrifying. There was like one part I was literally, I still think about it and it gives me shivers. so But that made me want to really pick up the book.
sofia
Oh.
Jen Brown
And I think I saw online that the author did not like the movie. Like, I think he felt like there were things about it that didn't capture.
sofia
Oh.
Jen Brown
This is like an old tweet. I could be misremembering.
sofia
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen Brown
um But I think he, yeah.
sofia
I believe you.
nicholae
yeah i liked the movie but i did not think it was a good adaptation
Jen Brown
Hmm.
nicholae
and the book
sofia
Yeah,
nicholae
the book Annihilation in the whole series are so incredible
Jen Brown
Yeah.
nicholae
that i don't think that they lend themselves well to film adaptation or adaptation at all in any form they just need to be read for what they are
Jen Brown
yeah
sofia
makes sense. Well, are you guys reading anything fun right now? Or looking forward to something you want to read?
I can say what I'm reading because I mentioned it last time, but I actually started it for real. Sky Daddy by Kate Folk.
nicholae
yeah i want to read that
Jen Brown
hmm hmm
sofia
So funny. Cause you know, like, I think I talked about this where I was like, it has an absurd premise, but sometimes there's like not enough to like keep it going where it's just like really relying on the premise to be the whole thing. And I think this so far it's doing it for me.
Jen Brown
hmm
nicholae
I’m really excited to read some of these romance suggestions that i know will be forthcoming from both of you
sofia
Oh yes, yes, yes.
nicholae
Also you know i'm very curious about maybe this genre doesn't exist but what about like there is you' are both going to laugh at me it's called romantasy never mind
Sofia & Jen
[laughter]
nicholae
but you know maybe that would be a good
Jen Brown
Yeah. I'm
nicholae
entree for me
sofia
No, not for you. No, no.
nicholae
okay
Jen Brown
not for you [laughs].
sofia
Because I gotta say most romantasy is like kind of not good.
Jen Brown
Yes.
sofia
Like it just kind of like, well, there's good.
Jen Brown
That's it. Sadly.
nicholae
life ruined!
Jen Brown
i think
sofia
Okay. Actually, I think there's like old stuff that's better and that people like kind of, yes.
Jen Brown
Before it was called romantasy. Yeah.
nicholae
yeah i need some good queer romantasy or romantic sci-fi hook me
sofia
Okay. Okay. oh I got you. I just got to think about it for a bit.
Jen Brown
Yes.
nicholae
What about you, Jen?
Jen Brown
So i I am reading The Memory Collectors, which is like not really of note because it's for, well, I shouldn't say that, but it's for my family's book. I love you, mom. I love you, sis.
Jen Brown
It's not that it's not of note. It's just like i if I was, it's interesting because if I was going to pick up a book, I probably wouldn't have picked this up. But it's it's been interesting to read. It's kind of light speculative.
But i think I'm also still enjoying, like when I'm not reading books, I think I'm also looking forward to playing more story-rich games. So like um I feel like a big – I never grew out of that –
nicholae
yes!
Jen Brown
That vibe of choose your own adventure stories being my jam from childhood. And I still love things like that. And there's a whole subgenre or not a subgenre. There's a whole genre of games that are called visual novels, which I think originated in Japan. um but they also have filtered here and there's tons of them now. Like indie developers will make games and there's a really good one that I think I'm going to replay called When the Night Comes by Lunaris Games. And it's a it's a very like fun, queer, dark, speculative game where you're sort of playing a, um man, I forget even, I think you're some kind of like hunter of things not like of like speculative creatures because there are different things in the book there's like a or different creatures there are there's like a well like a wolf guy and so ah
sofia
Not like a… wolf guy.
Jen Brown
and a vampire there's a vampire very very hot vampire There's like a really cute witchy guy you can get with both the wolf guy and the witchy guy because they had a relationship before the game started. And so you can encourage, you can either just encourage them to get back together or yeah, or you can have a beautiful polycule.
sofia
Oh my god.
sofia
ah love it.
Jen Brown
That's always my choice route is the polycule. And it's actually really well done. There's also like a really, really hot. Okay, now I'm just getting into the weeds of this. I'm sorry, let me... Let me wrap it up. I will replay that game because that's...
nicholae
go off
sofia
Now I'm interested in playing that game and don't really like games.
Jen Brown
Oh, I think y'all would like it. Because, you know, it's like a visual novel is just, it's all just story choices. So you're not even like, there's no button mashing. There's no controls.
sofia
Yeah, but like, I don't, I like to read, like, I think, you know those games, oh my God, what those called? The games where, like, you know when you used to play Super Mario, it was just like in a row, like, versus like, and now I will go in this direction and that direction and any fucking direction I want.
Jen Brown
Oh, platformers. Yeah.
Jen Brown
You just want like a linear.
sofia
Yeah, just give me a linear story.
nicholae
but there's a lot of reading
sofia
You made all the choices.
nicholae
there's lots of reading in the visual novel
Jen Brown
There is a lot of reading. Yeah. And it is mostly linear because the little choices, like in When the Night Comes, the little choices you make are more about how you'll deal with a thing, but you're still going to get to that thing.
sofia
i don't know, guys.
Jen Brown
It's not like you'd miss it entirely.
sofia
Okay. Okay.
Jen Brown
It makes me sad because I don't think you would vibe with like Baldur's Gate 3, which is my other obsession because there's a lot of variation in that game.
sofia
No.
Jen Brown
But
sofia
Just pick the story. Just tell me the story. I'm not trying to make the story myself.
Jen Brown
that's what's so addictive. Okay. We have a whole episode on this.
sofia
know. But you're a writer and I'm a reader.
Jen Brown
Yeah, you're right.
sofia
I'm a reader.
Jen Brown
You're right.
sofia
i only read. i don't make choices.
Jen Brown
yeah
Jen Brown
That's real.
nicholae
tell me the story. Jen have you this is not a visual novel but have you heard of or played played Omori
Jen Brown
No. What does that familiar, though?
nicholae
it's a it's a psychological horror like
sofia
Oh, you already said words I don't like.
nicholae
in a jrpg kind of
Jen Brown
I've heard of this. Yes, I've seen it.
nicholae
it's it's very cute very horrifying very beautiful it's not queer there is a queer character
Jen Brown
okay
nicholae
like some of the queer undertones are really downplayed in the story unfortunately
Jen Brown
okay
nicholae
but i adore it it's so good the story is so incredible it is very dark
Jen Brown
okay
nicholae
but maybe check it out its
Jen Brown
um ah
nicholae
it's beautiful the soundtrack is so good highly recommend it i have played it and i've watched people play it multiple times i got really hooked
Jen Brown
Noted. Okay, this is, and it's got real good reviews on Steam. I will be playing this.
sofia
I won't, but you can let me know.
Jen Brown
Ooh. Right.
sofia
Sorry.
Jen Brown
We all know what we love. That's that's important. You gotta know yourself.
nicholae
an episode where we just watch jen play a video game
Jen Brown
It's a Let's Play. I wonder if there are Let's Play podcasts. That's interesting.
sofia (outro script)
Thanks for listening! This has been the We Reads Podcast, which is part of We Here: an inclusive, private community for Black, Indigenous, and other Library or Archives workers of color. If you want to learn more about us, visit the We Here website: we here dot space. That’s we here dot space. And if you’re a BIPOC library or archives professional, or an LIS student, join one of our private space communities for solidarity and professional support. ’Til next time.
Credits script:
The We Reads podcast is produced by Imani Spence and hosted by Jen Brown, nicholae cline, and Sofia Leung. Our intro/outro music was created by Kamari WV. This podcast is supported by a grant from the Mellon Foundation as part of We Here’s dream-shaping project. Big thank you to the We Here Grant advisory team and the rest of the We Here family for all their support to help make this podcast possible. Special shout-out to our pets: Junior, Blue, and Hamlet and Beckett for keeping it real on the recordings.
Show Notes
We hope you enjoyed this episode! Below, you’ll find links to topics & resources that came up during our episode.
Books, Authors, and Media Mentioned
Series
Ancillary Justice (Imperial Radch series), Ann Leckie
The Josephine B Trilogy, Sandra Gulland
Divergent Series, Veronica Roth
Brown Sisters, Talia Hibbert
Hellraiser, Clive Barker
Standalone
Mexican Gothic, Sylvia Rivera Garcia
Model Home, Rivers, Solomon
Starling House, Alix Harrow
Ace of Spades, Faridah Àbíké-Íyímídé
The Traitor Baru Cormorant, Seth Dickinson
A Memory Called Empire, Arkady Martine
The Wayhaven Chronicles, Misha Jenkins
The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches, Sangu Mandanna
The Town of Babylon, by Alejandro Varela
Only a Monster, Vanessa Len
Never Sweeter, Charlotte Stein
A Study in Ugliness, (short story) H. Pueyo
Her Body and Other Parties, Carmen Maria Machado
The Stardust Grail Yume Kitasei
The Clan of the Cave Bear, Jean M. Auel
The Crying of Lot 49, Thomas Pynchon
Ninefox Gambit, Yoon Ha Lee
Kulti, Mariana Zapata
The Memory Collectors, Dete Meserve
The Southern Reach Trilogy, Jeff Vandermeer
Podcasts
Fated Mates history episode
Video Games (new show notes boss; UNLOCKED)
When The Night Comes, Lunaris Games
Our Life, EB Patch Games
Ebon Light, Underbliss
Credits
Hosts: Sofia Leung, nicholae cline, and Jen Brown
Producer: Imani Spence
Copyright: Copyright © 2025 We Reads Podcast. All rights reserved.This podcast and its contents are the property of We Here LLC and its hosts, and may not be reproduced, distributed, or transmitted in any form or by any means without the prior written permission of the copyright owner, except for brief quotations used in reviews or promotional content.
Note: As a Bookshop.org affiliate, we earn a small commission if you purchase books from our Bookshop. Revenue goes to scholarships for We Here’s Community Study participants.